Such as?

Shorter entire piece: progressives should do everything we possibly can to give Trump the White House again, knowing this would be a worse outcome for the Palestinians than re-electing Biden, but we’ll whine in advance this was not our fault.

You disrupted Vice President Harris because you’re a rude and self centered child who believes your voice should be heard over all others.
Your outburst accomplished nothing.

TL/DR: I'm furious that most of the public doesn't agree with me about Gaza, but I am sure my and others' performative outbursts will change their mind. If it doesn't make people agree with my views we don't have democracy anyway. Because democracy is people agreeing with me.

Saying a plurality of those polled agreed with your position is another way of saying a majority of those polled disagreed with your position. Congratulations on getting all the Instagram likes and shares though.

You call that a decadent ballroom? Have you ever been to the Ruins? The Olympic? The Davenport?

"Many people, including myself, feel powerless to curb the US’s role in facilitating violence in Palestine. We sign petitions. We march in the streets. We block roads. We start encampments on university campuses. We call our senators. Nothing changes. The weapons and money keep flowing."

Gosh, this makes it seem like inconveniencing random strangers by blocking roads or occupying campuses might not be an effective means of creating change.

@9: “We start encampments on university campuses.”

Which then spew eliminationist rhetoric against Israel, make demands for universities to blacklist academics who don’t agree with the campers’ political opinions, and produce accusations that school administrators who resist this bullying are baby-killing mass murderers. Somehow, all of this mysteriously fails to gather public support.

The United States will never denounce Israel. It will continue to arm and fund genocide and use Israelis to slaughter and starve whoever they want them to in the Middle East in the name of "peace" and "anti-Semitism." WAKE THE FUCK UP.

@1 " There are more constructive ways to channel your activism "

an evergreen refrain any time there's a protest of any sort

1) Hamas are intolerant terrorists that are hiding behind the people there
2) Hamas is against all of your liberal principles and western values
3) take away all the fighting and assume there was a free Palestinian state …..they would not be as acceptant to gay or trans or women’s rights as you think so it’s very counter intuitive on your part.

No one ever addresses the overpopulation problem over there and lack of resources… Palestinians are desperate for resources and things to do and terrorizing Jews it is one thing that they do come up with

"It
is only
through
collective
action and
organizing that we
can build the world we
want and stop the violence
perpetrated by our elected representatives."

Thank You for your
Thoughtful Action!
the moral arc of the
Universe will NOT bend
itself and Nevermind the
Status Quoziers here @ tS

they think
Everything'll
just Take Care
of Itself. wtf: How?

the Fascists
are At the
fucking
Gates.

Did you honestly think that interrupting the vice president would change other people’s minds? You say that you are not a seasoned activist but it seems to me that you have at least been coached by people who are. If so, are you sure that you are fully aware of their aims?

@16
judging
by her chosen
Addressee there
was but One target

and any ancillary
conversions partly-
or Otherwise'd all be
pure Bonus. see: MLK et al

the
Status
Quo Will
NOT HOLD.

@1 doesn't like the way you expressed an opinion he will never agree with regardless.

@9 inconveniencing random people is performative and obnoxious because the drivers stopped on I-5 or wherever have no ability to control US policy. Interrupting ghoul politicians at their fundraisers on the other hand is entirely appropriate.

@1 I notice you did not answer my question, nor did any of the other usual genocide-enablers who frequently "contribute" to the discussions in here.

What are the other, more timely and appropriate (in your view) means of speaking out against this ongoing horror, paid for by our tax dollars, with bombs we shipped them, with intelligence we supplied, and under the diplomatic cover we provide?

Not you @18. Thumbs up!

@7 lot of words just to tell us you don't know what "plurality" means

@14 how did the Palestinian areas get so overpopulated and resource-poor do you imagine? Is there any other territory they might have a plausible claim to that, if it were returned to them, would solve those particular problems?

Your claim that if Biden loses, it won’t be because of his stance on I/P is based on a calculation that cutting off Israel will not cost more votes or states than what he’s doing now. On the contrary, I think it is likely that a real break with Israel would absolutely cost him the election. Which, BTW would result in far more dead Palestinians than what is happening now.

Remember Honey Bunny from Pulp Fiction? That’s what Bibi wants to do, and Trump would encourage him.

@21: the way this author is using plurality here is to act like "less aid for Israel" is the most popular position because it outnumbers "same amount of aid to Israel" and "more aid for Israel" when they are taken separately, but not when they are combined. Which you would know if you read the linked survey results.

The survey results, such as they are, are pre-massaged to fit the desired talking points, but they do not show what this author is implying they show. It simply is not true that the author's position (roughly stated: "cut off Israel's defense budget right now") in any way matches the electorate's stated preferences. Which is why it would be politically disastrous for any Democrat wishing to win in November to incorporate those preferences into their platform.

It's fine to say your position is the right one for moral reasons. But it is very conspicuously not the position held by the majority of voters.

@18: “Interrupting ghoul politicians at their fundraisers on the other hand is entirely appropriate.”

So, other than the aforementioned Instagram likes and shares, what did this stunt accomplish?

@19: “What are the other, more timely and appropriate (in your view) means of speaking out against this ongoing horror,”

Organizing protests against Hamas’ abuse of civilians in Gaza? Demanding the international community destroy that terrorist gang?

"Of course the people don't want war.

But after all,
it's the leaders
of the country who
determine the policy,
and it's always a simple
matter to drag the people
along whether it's a democracy,
a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament,
or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to
the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

can not Wait till
bibi Eltrumpfster gee
dubya the dick CHENEY et
al're finally on the damn Docket

let them
Tribunals
begin, baby.

I think the essential problem here is that protesters are using techniques from the baby boomers (which took a long time to see any results) in a situation where the vast majority of Americans have no idea what is going on, or even where Israel/Gaza is located, let alone the history.

The boomers had an advantage because everyone was affected by Vietnam to some extent or another, and they had a lot of celebrity backing. The message—End the War in Vietnam—was crystal clear to both sides.

The people in that room weren't dumb or evil, and neither is VP Harris. But it's still performative and evocative of protest actions more than half a century old - and I'd be willing to bet no one in that room was swayed.

Now, apply that to a disrupted Christmas Tree Lighting Ceremony, or an endless evening commute home, or a Saturday afternoon spent in a traffic jam and all that means to the population is some crazy people from Seattle are worked up about something, and it plays into the stupid "Seattle is Dying" narrative. Add religious bigotry - of whatever persuasion - to the mix, and it's just a muddled mess.

To spur action, whatever side of this mess you are on, can't start with moral scolding, if most people have no idea what you are talking about.

@24 "the way the author is using plurality here" is the way everyone uses plurality everywhere, because that's what the word means

@25 other than hundreds of thousands of people seeing and explicitly approving of their "stunt" what did it accomplish? Made Kamala and her boosters uncomfortable and let them know voters disapprove of the administration's inaction. Not everyone has a massive war chest like AIPAC to buy elections, regular people need to use other means to make their feelings known.

@29: "Made Kamala and her boosters uncomfortable..."

You might try reading the headline post again:

'But, alas, as a seasoned politician, she just said, “Thank you, I am speaking now.”'

Just a-quakin' in her boots, she was.

Obviously.

"...let them know voters disapprove of the administration's inaction."

'Three-quarters of respondents said Israel should move forward “with an operation in Rafah to finish the war with Hamas, doing its best to avoid casualties even though there will be casualties.” A quarter picked the other option — that Israel should “back off now and allow Hamas to continue running Gaza.”'

"The survey was conducted from May 15-16 among 1,660 registered voters by the Harris Poll and HarrisX. The margin of error for the total sample is plus or minus 2 percentage points."

(https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4675669-joe-biden-israel-approval-lowest-mark-new-poll/)

@28: Here are the poll results, from the link in the headline post:

"When thinking about U.S. funding for military aid and weapons for Israel, do you think the U.S. should
increase funding, decrease funding, or keep it as is?

18% - Increase funding for this
33% - Keep funding as is
37% - Decrease funding for this
12% - Don't know

So a plurality, 37%, want "U.S. funding for military aid and weapons for Israel" decreased. A majority, (33% +18% = 51%) want "U.S. funding for military aid and weapons for Israel" either to remain the same or increased, or in plainer terms, NOT decreased.

Or, as @7 put it succinctly, "Saying a plurality of those polled agreed with your position is another way of saying a majority of those polled disagreed with your position."

See how easy that was?

You're welcome.

@29

Do you believe that all 2.3 million Gazans should be bombed or starved to death because Hamas and other groups launched an operation against Israel on October 7th?

Argh. @30

@30 not every pol is a clown on the level of Seattle CM Moore, some can manage to appear unfazed when their speeches are disrupted, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect them.

@31 not "Jews" a particular dark money lobbyist organization which is well documented to buy elections. Note the author of this article and the organization he represented are also Jewish, would I be justified in labeling you an antisemite for criticizing them? Obviously not. Try harder.

@34: Still waiting for you to provide evidence for your claim @29 this stunt made “Kamala and her boosters uncomfortable…”, especially when the protester’s own account states (regretfully!) how VP Harris easily maintained her own decorum in the presence of rude behavior.

@32: “Do you believe that all 2.3 million Gazans should be bombed or starved to death…”?

No, that is Hamas’ position, and I oppose terrorism. How about the world’s protestors work to stop Hamas, instead of just ineffectually yelling at each other about ineffectually yelling at Israel?

“…Hamas and other groups launched an operation against Israel on October 7th?”

Hamas was launching rockets into Israel from Rafah, as the IDF moved towards Rafah to stop them. That was long after October. Please do try to keep up.

(Oh, and BTW: “launched operations” as a euphemism for kidnapping, rape, and murder spree against defenseless civilians? Somewhere, George Orwell is giving you a side-eye. May no terrorist group ever “launch operations” anywhere near where you have family or friends.)

As a white man, I can't think of anything more racist than a white man interrupting a black woman giving a speech because she is not complying with his political wishes. As I have said before, if Trump wins in November, once he shreds the Constitution, I will denounce to the authorities every loony leftist who put the fate of the Palestinians above the safety of our fellow Americans as AntiFA. If people who worked to preserve Democracy by working to stop Trump have to suffer because of these idiots, then they should suffer far worse.

@37 as a white man it seems you've been effectively insulated from racism if that's the most racist thing you can imagine

nyt:

For Campus Protesters in Brussels,
Familiar Methods, but
Different Outcomes

Pro-Palestinian student activists at one Belgian university have borrowed from the U.S. playbook of encampments and slogans. The results, however, have been starkly different.

On the leafy campus of a Dutch-speaking university, students have for months been demanding that their institution break ties with Israeli academia over the war in Gaza.

Their campaign borrows extensively from the U.S. campus protest playbook. The students have set up an encampment. They have staged daily demonstrations.

And they have sometimes used slogans that many Jews view as a call for the elimination of Israel, like, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.”

In the United States, the protests have taken place amid a hyper-polarized political environment, contentious relations between students and administrators, and acrimonious hearings in Congress.

But in Belgium’s capital, the protest at Vrije Universiteit Brussel, or V.U.B., has been far more peaceful because of a unique combination of factors: a supportive political environment (Belgium is a vocal critic of Israel); a proactive rector; strict protest rules; and, crucially, a tiny campus Jewish community that has chosen not to confront protesters despite discomfort over some of the protests.

As a result, and as like-minded protests incited by the war have brought disorder and violence to campuses in the United States as well as in Europe, the students on the Brussels campus have taken pride not only in the success of their protest, but also in its vibe.

--by Matina Stevis-Gridneff; June 16, 2024
reporting from the Vrije Universiteit
Brussel campus in Brussels

oodles More:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/16/world/europe/campus-protest-belgium-gaza.html

now
let the War
Crimes mongers
tear them asunder

@37 -- "... if Trump wins in November, once he shreds the Constitution, I will denounce to the authorities every loony leftist who put the fate of the Palestinians above the safety of our fellow Americans as AntiFA."

Biden -
siding with
bibi - at least
Initially -- and now
bibi 'appears' Untouchable

puts the Safety of Americans
in Jeopardy - and Jews planetwide
every time he sends more Weaponry
and Billions of Our tax Dollars to bibi's
Genocidal Regime. speaking of Blowback

believe it or Don't
Palestiians heve
Friends some
of whom're
not Nice
people

who may look at the nearly
FORTY THOUSAND DEAD
Palestinians as Excessive
for a terrorist act killing
some 1,400 Israelis &
seek what they may
see as Retribution.

END The Fucking
GENOCIDE
N.O.W.

@39: So, did the V.U.B. actually do anything the protestors wanted? Your lengthy quote somehow failed to say.

Oh, and this particular point isn’t actually anything to brag about: “…crucially, a tiny campus Jewish community that has chosen not to confront protesters despite discomfort over some of the protests.”

European Jews know exactly what will happen to them if they dare to stand up for themselves, now don’t they?

@38 -- I don't have to imagine Donald Trump being super racist and being terrible for minorities in the US since he's already done that and keeps doing it. Which is why it's bad that the author of this piece -- a white man -- is doing everything he can to get Trump elected president again. But what does Flaster care? He'll be fine. It's the height of privilege.

@40: Did you just threaten terrorist acts against persons who dare to disagree with you? Because it certainly can read that way:

“puts the Safety of Americans
in Jeopardy - and Jews planetwide
every time he sends more Weaponry
and Billions of Our tax Dollars to bibi's
Genocidal Regime. speaking of Blowback”

Oh, and we all know perfectly well how awful Hamas’ terrorists are:

“believe it or Don't
Palestiians heve
Friends some
of whom're
not Nice
people”

Yes, they raped and murdered Jews, for being Jews, on land they have vowed to cleanse of Jews. And while your command of English might not suffice to recognize an eight-letter word to match — one which was coined exactly to describe such activities — the rest of us can.

Maybe that’s why American registered voters overwhelmingly approve of the IDF destroying Hamas in Gaza?

@43 "American registered voters overwhelmingly approve of the IDF destroying Hamas in Gaza"

Actually the opposite is true. Independents disapprove 2:1 and Democrats are even more against

https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx

@44: Super up-to-date and relevant, too:

“The latest results are from a March 1-20 survey.”

And now for something a little more recent:

'Three-quarters of respondents said Israel should move forward “with an operation in Rafah to finish the war with Hamas, doing its best to avoid casualties even though there will be casualties.” A quarter picked the other option — that Israel should “back off now and allow Hamas to continue running Gaza.”'

"The survey was conducted from May 15-16 among 1,660 registered voters by the Harris Poll and HarrisX. The margin of error for the total sample is plus or minus 2 percentage points."

(https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4675669-joe-biden-israel-approval-lowest-mark-new-poll/)

The majority of Germans also supported rounding up Jews, confiscating their property, forcing them into ghettos, then eventually on to work camps or death camps. That did not make it right.

A large, but possibly shrinking, majority of Israeli Jews support the current genocide in Gaza. If you take some time to study the history going back to 1948 and even before, the analogy just keeps getting stronger and stronger.

Vice President Harris will speak on whitehouse(dot)gov Monday June 17 at 1:30PM Pacific Time on sexual violence in war. Included will be excerpts from Sheryl Sandberg's documentary Screams Before Silence. The documentary is also available free elsewhere.

Humans have a history of war. Right now we have Sudan, Eastern Congo, Syria, The Sahel, Myanmar, various drug and gang wars, Ukraine, and others. Many are funded by fossil fuel money, so by fossil fuel consumers.

The war is Gaza is probably the most covered in the media in history. Maybe that will lead to peace throughout the world as a new generation grows into positions of responsibility?

@45 that's a great example of manipulating poll data by very intentional phrasing and limiting options. "Invade Rafah or just quit and let Hamas win" is a false dichotomy. Also the pro-invasion response specifies that Israel "do its best to avoid casualties," which many people do not believe Israel is doing, which is a big reason so many do not support Israel's actions. That poll is trash.

@46: “The majority of Germans also supported rounding up Jews, confiscating their property, forcing them into ghettos, then eventually on to work camps or death camps.”

You state with great confidence the absolute truth of a point which, in reality, has been hotly debated ever since we tore down the Third Reich. That regime went to great lengths to hide their program of mass murder, which suggests it wasn’t as popular as you make it sound. (Also, European Jews had been walled up in ghettos for centuries before the Nazis came to power. It wasn’t a new idea.)

If you want to make a modern analogy to the Nazis, I suggest you start with Hamas. Killing Jews for being Jews, on land Hamas has vowed to cleanse of Jews, sounds awfully familiar to anyone knowledgeable about the Third Reich. Don’t you agree?

@49 "Killing Jews for being Jews, on land Hamas has vowed to cleanse of Jews"

It was so messed up when all those Christians were killed for being Christians at Little Bighorn

@48: Or maybe the poll questions simply reflect reality?

“Hamas has insisted it will not release the remaining hostages unless there’s a permanent cease-fire and a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza.”

(https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-ceasefire-negotiations-ab6925549d8f523a6e5c61e88e7eec8a)

That sounds a lot like the premise of the poll: either Israeli military actions continue, or a cease-fire leaves Hamas in Gaza.

Also, it’s easily possible to believe the IDF is trying to limit casualties. The number of casualties per day is lower than on 10/7, even with Hamas using Gazans as human shields.

when the sociopaths
are the voice of
'reason' you
know this
Planet's
likely
fuck-
ing

Doomed.

"American
registered voters
overwhelmingly approve
of the IDF destroying Hamas in Gaza"
--@Wormtongue

“The majority of Germans also supported
rounding up Jews, confiscating their property,
forcing them into ghettos, then eventually on to
work camps or death camps. That did not make it right.”
--@ OneTrickPony

yeah
but it
did make
it Genocide.

“There
is no justify-
cation for terrorism. Ever.”

tensorna on December 8, 2023 at 8:44 AM

‘There
Is No Justifi-
cation for Terrorism,’
Says Man Justifying Genocide

more, disturbingly:
https://theneedling.com/2023/09/02/there-is-no-justification-for-terrorism-says-man-justifying-genocide/

@53: Of course you fell for it. The question of whether ordinary German citizens supported the mass executions of Jews, homosexuals, etc. has been heavily debated, without finding a clear answer of the type OneTrickPony states. Given that Nazi Germany was a totalitarian one-party state, there’s also the question of whether such popular approval, or lack thereof, would even have mattered.

(And for someone who constantly throws terms like “fascist” around here, you suddenly decided those terms were not needed when talking about actual fascist violence. Most curious…)

The holocaust would have been impossible without the enthusiastic participation of the German public. There have been attempts to whitewash that history and even to deny that the holocaust ever even happened, but the historical evidence is absolutely overwhelming. The Jewish victims have been given pride of place, but there were millions of others, as well, including communists, homosexuals, socialists, the disabled, developmentally delayed, elderly, and other "useless eaters."
But my point was that just because a majority have been tricked into supporting a genocide by a relentless torrent of spin doctoring, messaging, talking points, press conferences, propaganda, and professional and academic retaliation, that in no way makes it right. Vast majorities of whites and all the mainstream media also hated MLK during his team and literally cheered his assassination, lionizing him only in death from whence he could do more damage to the precious status quo.

@tensora Your struggle to find a proper historical analogy to the current crisis in Gaza arises from your fundamental misunderstanding of what is going on. In your mixed up mind, the lightly armed and loosely organized Gazans are the Nazis, while the Israeli war machine with its jets and tanks and drones with satellite targey

targeting by the good 'ol USA is somehow the heroic resistance. A much better comparison would be the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, where the Polish Jews were the captive population but resisted by force against the most powerful military in the world.

@55: Assertions made without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. (Also, I’d already mentioned the Nazis killed persons other than Jews.)

@56: On 10/7, Hamas (not “Gazans”) killed over one thousand Israelis with small-arms fire. That’s pretty effective killing. So effective, in fact, it’s multiple times the daily death rate (from both Hamas and the IDF) of the war in Gaza. (And, as you noted, the IDF has far more lethal weapons than did Hamas.)

Hamas killed Jews, for being Jews, on land the killers have declared shall be cleansed of Jews. So the analogy to Nazi mass murder seems pretty apt.

@57: You really need to understand this war is between Hamas and the IDF, with the Gazans used as human shields by Hamas. That’s why the death toll is so high. (https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf)

@57 no you don't understand the Jews are always the victims no matter what. Ethnically cleansed by an authoritarian regimes? Victims. Illegally immigrate to a region and start a terror campaign against the locals and the government? Victims. Take over, form an authoritarian regime, and ethically cleanse said locals? Still victims. And anyone who disagrees is an antisemite.

@59, @57, @53:

As already mentioned up-thread, the survey linked by the author of this headline post shows a majority of Americans surveyed do NOT want the US to decrease military aid to Israel.

Watching you guys, as you incessantly talk each other further and further from understanding why that might be, makes for some welcome amusement. Thanks!

Well, a MAJORITY of registered voters want something? Make it so!

Let's start with cutting military spending, raising taxes on the ultra-wealthy and corporations, pouring money into physical infrastructure, education, health care, student loan forgiveness and child care.

Oh we are not going to do any of that? Correct, because the national political parties care not one wit about public opinion where it concerns those issues. They are only going to do so, incrementally, if forced to do so by mass popular movements. And, as argued above, even when majorities support something, that does not make it right. But you really clinging to that one tightly.

I am really glad you are getting some amusement out of this discussion, but tens of thousands of innocent civilians in Gaza killed, hundreds of thousands injured, and millions displaced, hospitals, schools, markets, mosques, water treatment facilities wantonly destroyed? I do not see the humor.

@61: While your survey results supporting your laundry list seem lacking, it’s worth noting the poll cited by the author of this headline post shows a majority surveyed do NOT want US military aid to Israel reduced. That result arrived after months of IDF-Hamas warfare in Gaza, which comports with the survey results I cited. You can sneer contemptuously at our democracy all you like; what these results are telling you is that nobody has changed their minds, despite stunts like the one described in this post, despite student protests, despite blocking traffic on I-5, etc. What you do with that information is up to you, but more of whatever you’ve been doing would not seem like a valid path to the results you seek.

Tensor doesn't give a shit about Gazans or Israeli's, they are a child whose only incentive is to siphon all attention to their narcissistic blathering contrarian screeds which are indefensible propaganda and support of genocide. Engaging is a waste and always a bad faith endeavor. Just a sad and shameful person who can't get over themselves and their own departure from Seattle.

@63 I actually disagree. Virtually all corporate media and "leaders" in both the Republican and Democratic parties think, talk, and act like tensora with respect to the Israel/Gaza question. I have no opportunity to confront and expose the hypocrisy of the former groups because of their massive power and platform imbalance. But I can do so through their self-appointed (and likely paid) surrogate.

@tensora if you want to find out about the clear majorities of US voters who favor my above "laundry list," I encourage you to dive in and do the research yourself. You might learn something.

Garb@63: You really should reconsider your decision to return here, at least for awhile. It seems not to help you.

I care enough about the civilians in Gaza to describe why they are dying, and it’s not because Israel engages in genocide, but because Hamas attacks Israel from behind them. Yelling at Israel over “genocide” accomplishes nothing, and yet, you’re still at it. If we want to stop civilians in Gaza from dying, then we have to stop Hamas. How to do that should have been the topic here for the past eight months, but the Stranger just had much better ideas than opposing terrorism, it seems.

“…who can't get over themselves and their own departure from Seattle.”

I’ll leave that first part to you, but on the last part, well, no:

‘Law enforcement agencies in the region have warned against what Renton police called “staged vehicle collisions,” where a driver rear-ends another vehicle before carjacking.’

(https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/a-seattle-man-was-carjacked-the-attack-ended-up-saving-his-life/)

@BigToughWarriorDood: “But I can do so through their self-appointed (and likely paid) surrogate.”

Yeah, if you think writing the Stranger’s headline posts pays poorly, then you should try this. ;-)

Also, you can kindly go do your own research. You just might learn why so many Americans want us to keep supplying military aid for what you wrongly called “genocide.”

The civilians in Gaza are dying because the infrastructure of life (hospitals, sanitation, water, power, food delivery systems) has been deliberately and systematically destroyed by Israel using US-supplied bombs, guided by US Intel, and shielded by US diplomatic efforts from any accountability.

And a larger and larger portion of the US public is looking on in horror as this continues. And the world is turning its back on Israel, one country at a time, despite the efforts of our ruling class and their mindless mouthpieces such as yourself.

@66: You really need to read that report I linked, about Hamas’ use of civilians in Gaza for human shields. Hamas cowers behind not just the civilians themselves, but also cowers behind their infrastructure. All of this is an intentional, per se violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and it explains why so much of Gaza’s civilian infrastructure has been destroyed in the fighting.

“And a larger and larger portion of the US public is looking on in horror as this continues.”

Yes. They’re wondering when folks like yourself will learn how to spell Hamas, let alone learn what that misogynistic, LGBTQ+ hating jihadi terrorist group really wants — and does. They’re disgusted by the eliminationist rhetoric which flowed as freely from elite schools as material from a busted sewer line. And, as this headline poster so witlessly revealed, they want as much — or more! — military aid for Israel.

“And the world is turning its back on Israel, one country at a time,”

Oh, come on, be specific: Russia, China, Iran… you know, every one of your blazing beacons of moral superiority.

@65. I know you would rather not face the truth about yourself, but I'm not going anywhere.

my Gawd
the Kuntiness
it's Suffocating
relentless reich-
wing pov masquer-
ading as compassion
in support of a genocidal
maniacal far "right" agenda
intent on replacing Palestinians

and to Hell
with their
humanity

it truly Is
a corporate
stooge here
to derail in ser-
vice of an insidi-
ous evil engaging
in circular argument

sabotaging tS

why on Earth was it
grandfathered in?

Well Spain, Ireland, and Norway have recently formally recognized Palestine as a State, which sparked a tremendous fit by Netanyahu. The US would have never previously allowed its European vassals to act so independently, so something has slipped. It is likely public opinion in those countries aghast at the slaughter has become so overwhelming that the leaders had no choice but to do something performative.

Thanks for the invitation but I can guarantee I have read 10x what you have about this conflict. I am wiling to educate you if you care to learn. The idea of Hamas using the civilian population as shields was the early attempt at justification, but that kind of went out the window long ago, as Israel would not and could not produce any evidence of its wild claims.

Also, the "Hamas-using-human-shields" trope does not explain away public statements from Israeli leaders like Yoav Galant. He said something to the effect that they are dealing with human animals and there will be no food, no water, no fuel for Gaza. And then, by golly, they went right ahead and did it. Collective punishment is one of the favored modalities since direct fighting leads to far more Israeli casualties.

Israel only works if is prosperous and can offer a superior material lifestyle and comforts to its emigrees. But now at war with all its neighbors, trade in big trouble, the Israeli economy is going to tank. And the dual-citizen population has already begun to leave, and it is going to turn into a flood.

You did it for no other reason than to make yourself feel better. The adults that let you run the show and refused to ever tell you "no" are the reason why you think you have that much clout in the real world. You don't. There are things we could protest domestically that would be more impactful and make more sense. The gun advocates keep telling us "no", when it comes to gun control. Where's the outrage? It seems like we can't keep our focus on any one thing.

@65 "what you wrongly called 'genocide.'”

International experts also call it genocide.

https://www.humanrightsnetwork.org/genocide-in-gaza

but
our resident
grammar nazi

the insidious Voice
or Corporatism Has no
other legs to stand upon
and as for a moral conscience?

money has
its Own Rules
& 'people' are
tertiary, at Best.

@71 Your entry was a bit confusing, not sure where it was directed? At the original author, I suppose. And I agree that gun violence is quite a concern. But in terms of sheer mayhem and the need for immediate action, the ongoing genocide in Gaza, to me, is well deserving of the top spot for protest, marches, sit-ins, takeovers, boycotts, divestment, sanctions, and very public denouncements.

bingo,
onetrick

and
severe
condemnation
for genocide-Enablers

presidential
or Otherwise.

@70: “Well Spain, Ireland, and Norway have recently formally recognized Palestine as a State, which sparked a tremendous fit by Netanyahu.”

Well then, it’s a good thing “Israel” is not synonymous with “Netanyahu,” although you’d hardly be the first Slog commenter to make that erroneous equation.

If supporting a two-state solution is your definition of “the world is turning its back on Israel, one country at a time,” then the United States has been doing so since 1948.

“It is likely public opinion in those countries aghast at the slaughter has become so overwhelming…”

Well, you could, y’know, cite recent public opinion polls from those democracies, but as we’ve already seen, in this very thread, that really doesn’t ever seem to do anything to support your claims, now does it?

“… that the leaders had no choice but to do something performative.”

Wait a second! Didn’t you just give the actions of those countries as substantive examples of “the world turning its back on Israel, one country at a time”? Now you describe those actions as mere “performative” sops, by ruling elites, to silence the worthless opinions of their rabbles? Which is it?

“… I have read 10x what you have about this conflict. […] The idea of Hamas using the civilian population as shields was the early attempt at justification, but that kind of went out the window long ago, as Israel would not and could not produce any evidence of its wild claims.”

It appears you have yet to read the NATO report, from many years ago, covering the many years before that, in which Hamas openly used the civilians of Gaza as human shields. I provided a link in this thread; I again suggest you read it.

“He said something to the effect…”

Actual quotes from government officials being as hard to find as public-opinion polls in long-established democracies, apparently.

“Israel only works if is prosperous and can offer a superior material lifestyle and comforts to its emigrees.”

Or so long as Jews face persecution elsewhere in the world. (That should come to an end real soon, right?)

“But now at war with all its neighbors…”

While I’m sure you’ll soon provide dispatches from the Jordan-Israel war zone, in the meanwhile you can educate us on how, to the very best of your knowledge, Israel being at war with neighbors represents a completely unprecedented moment in Israeli history.

“… trade in big trouble, the Israeli economy is going to tank. And the dual-citizen population has already begun to leave, and it is going to turn into a flood.”

Was economic and demographic information on this point difficult for you to find, or did you find it every bit as supportive as the public-opinion survey cited in this headline post? Do tell.

@76 I wholeheartedly agree with you. Jewish is not synonymous with Israel, nor is Israel synonymous with Netanyahu. I am especially proud of those Jews (and there are very many of them) who are renouncing the Israeli government's slaughter in Gaza publicly and vocally, from the train stations of Manhattan to the world's college campuses and even to the winner's podium at the Academy Awards.

Economic data? As you know, good data is usually available for periods of a year or two in the past, and things are changing too fast. Anyway, I have already told you I am not going to waste my time hunting for links. If you would like to explore the truths I am sharing, once again, dive deep and enjoy the journey. But if you want to look into the future of the current racist, vicious, apartheid regime ruling the State of Israel, have a look at South Africa's experience once the mask was finally off for all the world to see. It was relegated to the dustbin of history, Mandela was freed, Apartheid smashed, and it not because the Western Capitals urged it to be so. Indeed, they propped up the regime for as long as possible, until the tides of history and popular movements forced their hands and then they pretended to be "down" all along.

Not at war with all their neighbors? As most of the major corporate media do, you skipped right over the West Bank on your way to the Jordan River. The UN has reported that 538 Palestinians have been murdered there since October 7th, even though Hamas has no presence there! How curious.

@77: "Economic data? As you know, good data is usually available for periods of a year or two in the past, and things are changing too fast."

So, your claim wasn't merely your opinion stated as fact, but your speculative opinion, stated as fact. Thank you for admitting that.

"I have already told you I am not going to waste my time hunting for links."

There's a very good reason for that, which you've here demonstrated nicely.

"...have a look at South Africa's experience once the mask was finally off for all the world to see. It was relegated to the dustbin of history, Mandela was freed, Apartheid smashed, and it not because the Western Capitals urged it to be so."

From Wikipedia:

"The Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986[1] was a law enacted by the United States Congress. The law imposed sanctions against South Africa and stated five preconditions for lifting the sanctions that would essentially end the system of apartheid, which the latter was under at the time. Most of the sanctions were repealed in July 1991, after South Africa took steps towards meeting the preconditions of the act, with the final vestiges of the act being repealed in November 1993."

[...]

"In 1990 and 1991, South African President F. W. de Klerk made steps towards meeting the preconditions of the Anti-Apartheid Act.[23] In 1991, following de Klerk's repeal of Apartheid laws and the release of Nelson Mandela and other (though not all) political prisoners, President Bush issued an executive order lifting virtually all bans against doing business with South Africa.[24]"

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Anti-Apartheid_Act#:~:text=The%20act%20was%20initiated%20by,sanctions%20in%20Europe%20and%20Japan.)

Yours is hardly the first analogy I've seen between the student activism in the United States, which preceded the end of apartheid, and the recent student activism, which utterly failed to do much of anything at all concerning Israel. Of all the many differences, the United States Congress (meeting in a "Western Capital," btw) having recently enacted a coherent, workable anti-apartheid law seems to be the largest. Public opinion in the US was already very much in favor of ending apartheid, whereas public opinion now in the US is in favor of not reducing military aid to Israel. The demand for disvestment against apartheid worked with US policy; the recent demands for divestment defied US policy.

"Not at war with all their neighbors? As most of the major corporate media do, you skipped right over the West Bank on your way to the Jordan River."

Israel shares a long frontier with Jordan, and it is completely possible to cross from Israel into Jordan without touching the West Bank, or even seeing it. As Israel and Jordan are not at war, Israel is therefore not "at war with all of their [sic] neighbors." That really wasn't very hard, and it really didn't help your claim to have valuable knowledge of the region.

Speaking of which:

"The UN has reported that 538 Palestinians have been murdered there since October 7th, even though Hamas has no presence there!"

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/hamas-still-operates-in-the-west-bank-what-is-israel-doing-about-it/

@78 You think that South African Apartheid ended because the US Congress passed a law against it? You sweet summer child.

I think I see the problem--you take official statements and acts from the US government at face value and divorced from all context. Quite an unsophisticated view.

I have never heard of "themedialine.org" so you might want to consider focusing on more reliable sources.

Yes, Israel is not currently at war with Jordan, so the statement I made that Israel is at war with "all its neighbors" was overbroad. You got me. Their are only at war with Hamas, Hezbollah in N. Israel and S. Lebanon, having their shipping attacked by the Houthis of Yemen, exchanging missile strikes with Iran, and launching bombing runs into Syria and Iraq. What a bunch of peaceniks!

But the original point remains--Israel is not a safe place to be right now, and will never be again in its current form. And as more and more of the world cut off diplomatic relations and trade with Israel, it's going to empty out. The only hope is to radically reimagine the entire project, as was done successfully in South Africa.

@79: As a result of apartheid, South Africa had been banned from the Olympics, and South African passports were refused by some countries. So the end of apartheid came from many sources. You were the one insisting no “Western Capitals” were involved, which was clearly not true.

“…acts from the US government at face value and divorced from all context.”

The context, as the lengthy quote showed, was South Africa dismantling apartheid, after much condemnation and sanctions from “Western Capitals,” to use your phrase. You seem to be the one “divorced from context” here.

‘I have never heard of "themedialine.org" so you might want to consider focusing on more reliable sources.’

This from the commenter who has airily declared he need provide no sources. At all. Priceless!

‘Yes, Israel is not currently at war with Jordan, so the statement I made that Israel is at war with "all its neighbors" was overbroad.‘

Israel isn’t at war with Egypt, either; in fact, both countries have closed their borders with Gaza.

As for the rest, you’ve already admitted you’re stating your unsupported speculation as fact, so who cares?

Thank you for standing up and using your voice in opposition to US war making. I applaud your preparedness in thinking through all possible results. That is our current reality. People speaking out CAN be arrested. People speaking out CAN be fired. People speaking out CAN lose housing, social media platforms, friendships, every form of community imaginable.
Nowadays it takes a ton a courage to risk all of those possibilities to speak truth to the king. You did that, and we take notice of it. Thank you.

@81: “People speaking out CAN be arrested.”

Not even the protesters who blocked an ambulance on I-5 were arrested.

“People speaking out CAN be fired.”

Examples of which might be?

“People speaking out CAN lose housing, social media platforms, friendships, every form of community imaginable.”

Many things “CAN” happen. Have you a single example of anything you mentioned which actually did happen?

“Nowadays it takes a ton a courage to risk all of those possibilities to speak truth to the king.”

If the community withdraws support from someone for speaking in an intentionally rude manner, isn’t that their right as a community, to show disapproval of what the person said or did? What if the community believes that audience members, even if white and high-income, should listen politely and respectfully to a BIPOC woman, especially after she has been elected to high office by her whole country? What if the community decides the term “genocide” should not be tossed around frivolously? What if the community believes a violently misogynistic, anti-LGBTQ, jihadi organization deserves more criticism than the liberal, diverse democracy it had attacked? Why should that community not use its perfectly-legal methods to criticize persons who flagrantly and intentionally violate important community values?