'Trump's [& jr vance's] claims
about Springfield, Ohio
cause chaos'

well Sure.
and only donold
eltrumpfster can "Fix it."

Vote Blue, baby.
it may be the
Last Time
you're
allow-
ed.

speaking of
Genocides
complicity
& being
Wrong:

nyt:

Wireless Devices
Explode Across Lebanon
After Israel Warns Hezbollah

A Lebanese official
said pagers belonging to
Hezbollah militants had exploded,
causing a large number of injuries.
The Israeli military declined to comment.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/09/17/world/israel-hamas-war-news

YOUR Tax
Dollars, $TILL
Hard at Work in
bibi's Land Grab cum
Genocide cum Keep-bibi-
the-FUCKOUTTA-Prison gambit.

Where does it End?

"Top Trumps"? Really, fuck that company name.

May I suggest the council also create a "SOGA" (Stay Out of Graffiti Area) banishment zone? The Express Lanes on I-5 could use less squalor.

@1
‘Donold’
Funny that the left is now zeroing in on Trump’s age when until the first debate every last one of you was going to vote for someone even older claiming he was the only hope for democracy.
Y’all lack credibility when it comes to damning someone for their age

"It's a little disappointing to see zero pushback from the rest of the Capitol Hill business community, but the council pushed these policies through as quickly as possible"

I know this will be shocking but most residents are tired of the progressive approach of allowing drug users to do whatever they want, whenever they want too. These laws may be ineffective at stopping people from using drugs but if they make the area a little safer and encourage some of our "neighbors" to relocate to other more permissive cities (here's your bus ticket to Portland) that's still a success for most of us.

The SODA and prostitution area laws are meaningless because you need cops to enforce them and they won't.

@2: you're saying a genius-level attack that specifically targets individual Hezbollah members is a "land grab cum Genocide"?

Hezbollah aren't Gazans. They're not West Bank Palestinians. They're Iranian proxies, beyond the control of the Lebanese Govt.

@4, They’re basically the same age but one of them chose to make age a campaign issue for some stupid reason. As far as any rational person is concerned age can’t be a deciding factor if the candidates are indistinguishable but now that’s no longer the case. Maybe your candidate shouldn’t have made his own shortcomings a campaign issue.

6: Lack of law enforcement doesn't negate the viability of a law.

Lol, all the game pieces in the Bellevue Monopoly game should be cars.

@3 because nothing would beautify our city like blank, 20'+ high walls of concrete framing the daily gridlock as it belches fumes into the heart of the city. Never understood people using the I-5 corridor as a poster child for places that would be better to look at without graffiti. But maybe it's the only part of Seattle those kinds of commenters actually spend any time in?

"....they've taken their sweet time when it comes to the Social Housing Initiative, I-137."

The Council need not take any action at all on I-137:

"If the Council does not act upon the initiative within 45 days from the date it was introduced to them, it must go before the voters at the next regularly scheduled election, irrespective of whether it is a state or municipal election or a primary or general election; but the City Council may in its discretion designate submission at a general election rather than a primary or call an earlier special election..." (https://www.seattle.gov/cityclerk/city-clerk-services/initiative-referendum-and-charter-amendment-guides/initiative-petition-guide#step8)

That the Stranger wants the Council to pass I-137 doesn't actually obligate the Council to do anything.

"Of course, their zone will just push drug activity to other parts of Capitol Hill."

Meaning the areas long plagued by illegal drug use, sale, and trafficking in stolen property, and other associated crimes will get a break. As @5 noted, this has more popular appeal than the Stranger's uncompromising abolitionist stance. A terrible policy beats abject policy failure. Perhaps, with new management, now might be a good time for the Stranger to review the results of policies it has long advocated?

"... alleged bad boss..."

Meaning it's time to remind the Stranger's readers, yet again, how then-CM Sawant hired and fired City Hall staffers based solely upon those staffers' standings within Socialist Alternative -- not upon merit or performance. (It's also time to remind the Stranger's readers that the Stranger responded to Sawant's abuses of city employees with an utterly servile silence. "Screw the workers!" was thus heard loud and clear.)

@7: As you know, Hezbollah are a gang of jihadi terrorists, backed by the women-beating fundamentalist regime in Iran.

In other words, exactly the type of persons for whom @2 will always have the deepest of sympathy. (Their innocent victims? Not so much.)

@11: So, which tag is yours? SATN? 8BIT?

@2, maybe buying all those cheap pagers off eBay wasn't such a hot idea.

@7 Yes, Hezbollah and Israel are explicitly fighting over Gaza. A permanent ceasefire in Gaza is the main condition for an end to the conflict according to Hezbollah.

Hezbollah are the main political party of Lebanese Shiites who make up ~1/4 of the population. They are the principal factor in preventing Israel from doing whatever they want in Lebanon. They are allied with Iran. Resuming the preceeding by saying "they are Iran's proxies" is neocon talk.

@13 I'm glad the artists are getting name recognition, but I can't take any credit. I'm partial to the little 7s with wings though. Nice color, simple, cleanly executed.

Israelis not only beat Palestinian women, but they crush them under 2000lbs bombs and shoot their children in the head "by accident". In other words, exactly the type of persons for whom @12 will always have the deepest of sympathy. (Their innocent victims? Not so much.)

@15 your naivete knows no bounds. Hezbollah has been terrorizing and killing Christians in Lebanon as part of their effort to drive them out of the country and establish a caliphate there. Is that part of the Gaza issue as well?
(https://www.arabnews.com/node/2491551). Saying they are Iran's proxies isn't neocon talk, its acknowledging the truth. Your full throated support for these organizations that want nothing more to subjugate and exterminate those who aren't part of their extremist ideology continues to be incomprehensible.

"A terrible policy beats abject policy failure."

A jaundiced analysis of policy failure is no justification for terrible policies that have failed over and over again

from Democracy Now:

U.N. Experts
Accuse Israel of
“Starvation Campaign” in Gaza
& Demand End to Western Complicity

Top United Nations human rights experts have condemned Western nations for supporting Israel’s devastating war on Gaza, urging the world to stop an unfolding genocide in Palestine.

This comes as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food, Michael Fakhri, is accusing Israel in a new report of carrying out a deliberate starvation campaign in Gaza.

“What we are witnessing in Gaza is the starvation of 2.3 million Palestinians. We’ve never seen a civilian population made to go hungry so quickly and so completely,” says Fakhri, who joins us from Brazil.

We also speak with Francesca Albanese, the special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territory, who says Israel’s assault on Gaza is part of a larger plan of “getting as much control as possible over maximum land with minimum Palestinian people.”

The lack of clean water has led to 1.7 million cases of infection diseases, mainly diarrhea, dysentery and hepatitis A, particularly affecting children, as well as cases of polio, smallpox and other infectious diseases that can trigger massive and deadly epidemics.

All this coupled with the lack of medical care result in deaths, especially of babies and children, making water scarcity and contamination a silent bomb which has far less visibility than those that destroy buildings, but a no less lethal bomb.

oodles:
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/9/17/gaza_food_un

take Note
Kamala:

the World
TRUSTS You.
don’t Let ‘em Down:
YOU are the Voice of America.

@18 No, no you are the naive who claims that more warfare will eventually solve sectarian warfare.

"Your full throated support for these organizations "

Stop lying. I am only stating facts and I am not supporting any sectarian organization that practices terror, contrarily to you who systematically justifies state terror against innocent civilians.

@17: So, Hamas’ long-documented abuse of civilians in Gaza for human shields, combined with Hamas’ leader clearly saying Hamas wants a higher casualty count amongst those civilians, finally overloaded even your reality-denial system, eh? From now on, Hamas won’t even exist in your world, will it?

@19: Go tell that to the voters of Seattle. (Be sure to mention your pride at being one of the Stranger’s few remaining supportive commenters. That ought to drive some votes — albeit not in the direction you’d intended.)

@21: “I am only stating facts,”

No, you’re lying. Hezbollah has long been under control of Iran. Trying to present them as home-grown protectors of Lebanon just adds to your already considerable dishonesty.

(If you actually believe your false and/or misleading statements here come across as anything other than support of terrorists, I strongly suggest you read this comment thread again.)

I think it is possible to believe both that Israel should rein in their settlers and stop bombing Gaza and that Hezbollah are a bunch of Taliban-adjacent would-be theocrats at the same time.

@23 Being a theocrat doesn't mean that one doesn't oppose the killing of innocent and foreign military rampage in one's country. Hezbollah also has extensive social outreach among Shias in Lebanon who are extremely poor and therefore many welcome it. Only claiming that Hezbollah are Iran stooges is a cartoon version of a complex reality that serves only those who don't want these populations to govern themselves.

@22 Israel has a long history of using human shields, including at the present, such as by forcing Palestinians civilians (including teenage children) to clear a path free from bombs for its troops.

"Hezbollah has long been under control of Iran"

You are a moron for pretending that Hezbollah doesn't act according to its own interest first. These interests happen to align with Iran's interests but claiming they don't have their own agency is plain stupid, racist and worthy of Bush 2's axis of evil rhetoric

Kamala has sworn loyalty over and over to Israel as does Trump. Her husband is a loyal member of AIPAC. The democratic party is in charge right now and they are the ones sending bombs and aid to a racist, fascist, cult called zionist Israel. Israel that is committing genocide on the Palestinian people. Zionism does not see anybody that is not the "chosen people" as really human but are there to be their slave/servants. They, zionist Israhell, is trying to eliminate every last Palestinian In the Gaza strip and the West Bank etc. And of course there is the samson project that threatens to blow up the world if Israel does not get what it wants.

Israel is in charge of this federal government and if Israel kills Americans this government will not do shit about it. Just like the beautiful young woman that an Idf sniper shot in the head and then Israel claimed it was a mistake. Biden stood with Israel just like he always does.

Anyone that votes for the genocide candidates Kamala or Trump is complicit in genocide.
We can and many will vote for someone that is not a puppet to Israel. Stein and West are two examples. Speak up against genocide demand that this government stop sending aid to the lunatic murderous state of Israel now!!

25: You can call me complicit in genocide, but I'm still voting for Kamala Harris.

@25 "Her husband is a loyal member of AIPAC."

Wow, Ivy...you know that's literally an antisemitic thing to say, right? Like, just because he is a Jew doesn't mean he is a "loyal member of AIPAC." He is the second gentleman of the United States, not a foreign agent.

And @2 and @15 are just making excuses for terrorism. Super disappointing to read this stuff.

As an American taxpayer you are complicit in the empire even if you vote for “antiestablishment” charlatans like Cornel West and Jill Stein, or no one at all. Voting isn’t some magic trick that determines where your tax dollars go. Your money is already spent.

@24: "Hezbollah also has extensive social outreach among Shias in Lebanon who are extremely poor and therefore many welcome it."

Foreign-financed terrorist groups like Hezbollah are a major reason Lebanon has remained a failed state for as long as it has. Eliminate those groups -- and it appears someone has today taken a major and welcome step towards eliminating Hezbollah -- and Lebanon might once again someday have a functioning government, which could then benefit all citizens. (Said benefits would include preventing terrorist groups from using Lebanese territory to attack Israel, which would eliminate justification for Israeli presence in Lebanon.) You're describing a major source of Lebanon's problems as if it was some beneficial, charitable solution. You've really gone around the bend when you're enthusiastically praising the wonders of a jihadi terrorist group.

"...human shields,"

Pretty much every army which has ever gone to war has committed war crimes, the US military most definitely not excepted. (This makes for yet another great reason to solve disputes peacefully.) You're intentionally confusing an occasional and illegal practice -- one which the Israeli Supreme Court has specifically condemned -- with a practice the leadership of Hamas has long established as a central pillar of policy in Gaza, and clearly intends to implement this policy specifically to kill even more Gazan civilians than it already has.

As for your enthusiastic defense of Hezbollah's supposed great independence from a longtime major supporter, all you're showing is you have absolutely no idea how regimes like Iran's actually operate.

“After former President Donald Trump made false claims that Haitian immigrants in Ohio had started stealing pets and eating them”

Anyone claiming there is no difference between a Kamala victory and a Trump victory is lying to you

@24- I don’t disagree that both are possible. It may also be that Hezbollah does some social good. But the world would be a far better place if theocratic influences were wiped out. And before anyone claims I’m an Islamophobe, I mean all theocrats. Sunni, Shia, Catholic, Evangelical, Ultra-Orthodox, etc. Other peoples’ religion is not worth dying for.

Don't let @25's warmed-over Protocols bs distract you from the fact that 40+ years of "I can't in good conscience vote for a president who betrays my values as much as Jimmy Carter has" has delivered, not the promised end to the two-party stalemate, but instead the narrowing horizons of ever-more-limited choices as the Overton Window creeps rightward.

Certain people invest social cachet in liking things that are not popular. It's the political equivalent of "I liked this band before it was cool." Ignore them.

7: This Israeli operation reads like something straight out of a James Bond/Mission Impossible movie; how do you get pagers to explode like this on command? There are so many layers to this story (and its implications).

@27

ffs how is @2
justifying a
Genocide?

my Intent was
it's Polar
Oppo-
site

@Ivy
sans ranked
Choice Voting
with TWO parties
OWNING OUR Elections
is Always gonna Be the Lesser of

corps
Amerikkana
having Bought
America Inc., LLC lol

should
Kamala
happen to
Outfox eltrumpfster
I doubt Young Peeps're
gonna keep off the Streets
& Allow our 'leaders' free reign.

I'm Olde
perhaps I'll
Join them. what've
we got to Lose? Palestine
today; Palestine, Texas tomorrow.

@33: apparently, 20 grams, <1 oz, of PETN explosive set off by a command that overheated the lithium battery. they also pinged the pager just prior so the target would be looking at it when it blew up.

The fact that anyone cares what the SEATTLE city council thinks about Israel/Palestine shows the utter worthlessness of the modern processive movement.

@21 "that more warfare will eventually solve sectarian warfare". I never said that. I just believe Israel has a right to defend themselves and dismantle an existential threat to their existence. It's a tragedy that civilians are being killed but I place the blame for those deaths where they belong, on Hamas who uses their followers as tools of propaganda. I also don't think the Palestinian population is completely innocent. In repeated polls they have expressed support for Hamas, felt the attacks on 10/7 were a good thing and have actively participated in the detention and torture of hostages. Both of us want this conflict to end, where we differ is what it will take to end it. Judging by your past posts you seem to believe that if Israel were to lay down their arms and open their arms to their neighbors they would be allowed to live in peace. I have never seen any action from the surrounding Arab countries that would make me believe that to be true. I think Hamas, Hezbellah and others need to acknowledge Israels right to exist, release all the hostages and pledge no further attacks and then there will be peace. Until then there will continue to be this back and forth of each side killing the other.

@33 I think the bigger question is why are Hezbellah carrying pagers in 2024? I haven't seen one of those since the 90s.

@21 I agree that we should act so that theocrats yield minimum political power but we should let their people decide how, not Exxon and co and/or the Pentagon. Also instead of inciting nationalist crispations through warmongering (both economic and military), our purpose would be much better served by cultural opening and trade. Also let's not forget that neocons are themselves the major culprits in theocrats taking over in many places such as Iran where we encouraged our friendly dictator to annihilate the secular opposition,

@27 No, YOU are promoting terrorism both by a) pretending that spilling more blood will not lead to more terror. and b) giving a free pass to Israel's extra-judicial killings throughout the region and mass murder of civilians

@29 "Pretty much every army which has ever gone to war has committed war crimes"

When I mentioned that fact to discuss Hamas war crimes in context, you went ballistic accusing me of all ills in the creation. Another example of you saying anything that is convenient and its opposite when the occasion presents itself. You are an unprincipled opportunist.

"This makes for yet another great reason to solve disputes peacefully"

Hypocrite. You have used many 1000's of words justifying violent repression and apartheid to suppress Palestinian demands for fairness.

The IDF has used human shields for decades, including today. Hiding behind a supreme court ruling that is ignored when convenient won't do.

@38 " I never said [more warfare will eventually solve sectarian warfare]"

This is what you are de facto saying when you conflate Israel indiscriminately murdering 10,000s of women and children with "Israel defending itself".

" you seem to believe that if Israel were to lay down their arms and open their arms to their neighbors they would be allowed to live in peace."

Oh please, Israel could start by stopping the theft of Palestinian land, the bulldozing of Palestinians homes and their orchards, the theft of water resources, the shooting of protesters, the jailing of political prisoners, and on, and on

The far left, with its constant infighting, relentless purity tests, and (in some corners) antisemitism, is just exhausting. They have the luxury of knowing the rest of the liberal-leaning people in the country will vote to protect them so that they can live a life of undergraduate anger.

omg
Catalina
have you gone
Full-on Boomer?

I Knew it was
Dangerous to dabble
but No you had to 'try it on...

well then let's Protect those
Children by allowing them
to Vote their Conscience
AND for the lesser
of Two

r ( \/,
baby.

or
Bust.

kristofarian dear, if you are going to attempt to insult me you will need to explain what you found so offensive.

The far left does engage in infighting (anyone who had any experience with the Freedom Socialist Party when they ran the Gay Pride march can testify to that). They don't form coalitions, at least not ones that last, and they are in a constant state of supposed moral superiority that alienates people from their cause.

This all goes on on the right end of the spectrum as well, although they tend to unite under what they regard as "strong men" (see donald trump)

There is a luxury in being able to be politically self-isolating and claim a supposed higher ground, because up to this point we've never had a fascist front with any political power. But now we do.

You can acknowledge that, or you can be like the handful of commenters and writers here on Slog that refuse to accept the fact that the progressives lost control of the Seattle City Council because people were fed up with their posturing and ineffectual governing. (To be fair, the ravages of Covid and the lack of federal response to the economic injustice in this country had a hand in that as well)

Moral certainty breeds arrogance and corruption.

@43

sadly
I have no
Opinion on why
Progressives lost the
Seattle City Council to
the corporate middle or
wherever their ideology lies

but I care much more
Deeply about stripping
Power AWAY from the Big
Two -- dems & rs with some
Ranked Choice Voting. it's become
a bit a of a Mantra to me. are you With me?

@44 and what would the alternative for the r’s and d’s be if we had RCV? The only thing RCV would do is make things that are blue turn deeper blue and things that are red deeper red.

@40 I’m beginning to think you prob had a pager explode in your pocket today too. Get well soon!

@45 well

the alternative'd
be Choice. the very
thing we Dems claim
we gotta Have when it
comes to family planning

why not extend that
to candidates suddenly
Beholden to the Electorate
in Stead of the Other way round?

sure it'll
Fuck with the
Status quo but just
Lookit where we Are.

supporting
Genocide hoping
and Praying to get
Grandp's Keys. thanks,
Nancy! I guess we got Lucky.

Kristofarian dear, I have no quibble with rank choice voting, but I do think that you still run into the question of who is going to support the candidates if you have no party apparatus. The real problem is money in politics. Since the Supreme Court has decided that money is speech and corporations are people, we are sort of stuck.

@34: what did @27 write which led you to believe it was accusing you of “justifying a Genocide”? The statement @27 says you were making excuses for terrorism @2. That had been established @7, ‘you're saying a genius-level attack that specifically targets individual Hezbollah members is a "land grab cum Genocide"?’

The point of @7 and @27 was you angrily throwing bizarrely false accusations at whomever (you assumed it was Israel) attacked Hezbollah. By this, you demonstrated your support for Hezbollah, a well-known terrorist organization. That’s what @7, @27, and others noted.

Pager Attack on Hezbollah
Puts Israel and Lebanon on Edge

Hezbollah, the Lebanese armed group backed by Iran, blamed Israel for the operation. That assessment was confirmed by U.S. and other officials who said Israel had planted explosives in at least hundreds of pagers. Israel, which has waged a long covert war against Iran and its allies, has declined to publicly comment on the attack.

As the hand-held devices exploded in sidewalks and in grocery stores, at homes and inside cars, the blasts sent Lebanon reeling and increased fears that the Israel-Hezbollah conflict could tip into full-scale war.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/09/18/world/israel-hezbollah-gaza-hamas

Our Tax Dollars
$TILL at Work.

Where does
it End?

@49: “Where does
it End?”

Good question!

“Hezbollah Walkie-Talkies Blow Up Across Lebanon in Second Wave of Attacks.”

(https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/new-details-in-hezbollah-pager-attack-point-to-supply-chain-breach-by-israel-8cd76a60?mod=mhp)

The poor dears! How will they coordinate their violent jihadi attacks now? Postal service? Why won’t everyone just leave these terrorists ALONE?!?

Israel is innovating new ways to kill and maim children and innocent bystanders in the name of anti-terrorism.

@51 Why would children have pagers and walkie talkies?

@51: Hezbollah wants to re-establish the Caliphate, and so Israel assists their effort — by returning them to 7th Century technology. ;-)

“… kill and maim children and innocent bystanders…”

Yeah, whereas Hezbollah targets children and other civilians directly. So, for each Hezbollah operative killed, or otherwise taken out of action, how many children or other civilians will be saved? Five, ten, twenty? Even if it’s just 1:1, that’s a lot of civilian lives saved.

52, They’re in proximity of people carrying explosives. Do you not understand how bombs work? Two kids are dead and a bunch more were injured, in addition to a bunch of innocent adults. But think of all the hypothetical children who could have been killed but weren’t or something.

@54: So, any attack upon any terrorist group must have exactly zero collateral damage? Obviously, terrorist groups now need to use even more civilians as human shields, because then, according to your logic, no one could ever attack them at all. So thanks for telling them that; if they take your advice, the civilian death toll will be larger next time.

Living in such a sheltered bubble must be nice. Too bad the rest of the world lacks your privilege.

I just think detonating hundreds of explosives while people are out living their day to day lives is a blatant act of terrorism. The video footage I saw looks no different than someone detonating a suicide vest.

@56: Just so you can hear how your own words sound to other people, you are saying that an attack in which electronic devices belonging to terrorists AND NO OTHER DEVICES are detonated in the hands of those terrorists is "no different than someone detonating a suicide vest?" You don't perceive any moral difference between those two actions?

I don’t particularly care whether a terrorist dies when they are killing innocent people going about their daily lives, no. For me, immortality enters the equation when people are at the grocery store or whatever and get killed for no reason.

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Volker Turk on Wednesday called for an independent investigation into the events surrounding exploding pagers that killed at least 12 people in Syria and Lebanon – before Hezbollah walkie talkies reportedly started to explode.

The simultaneous targeting of thousands of individuals, without knowing who held the devices or their location violated international human rights law and possibly international humanitarian law, Turk said in a statement.

"There must be an independent, thorough and transparent investigation as to the circumstances of these mass explosions, and those who ordered and carried out such an attack must be held to account," he said.

https://www.news24.com/news24/world/news/dont-weaponise-civilian-objects-says-uns-guterres-un-rights-chief-calls-for-pager-investigation-20240918

@56: A suicide vest is intended to kill multiple innocent persons for each attacker. The ratio here was inverted, with far fewer than one innocent person killed or injured for each Hezbollah terrorist killed or injured. So your straw poll survey was more than a little bit off.

Again, what you’re saying is only zero collateral casualties are allowed. Please let us know when you deign to enter our real world.

It's quite clear who has been using terror tactics today but the usual deceased minds continue to make up excuses for Israel blatant escalation toward a regional war

By that reasoning, the bombs Israel uses to blow up hospitals, refugee camps, and international aid convoys are even more immoral because they are bigger and more sophisticated and have killed orders of magnitude more people.

I understand that collateral casualties are going to happen, I just think Israel should take greater pains to minimize them if they want anyone besides hardliners to perceive them as a more moral force than the people they’re fighting.

@58: Understood. Might be time to check the warranty on your moral compass. It seems to have gotten jammed.

@62: Any word on when Hamas will stop using “hospitals, refugee camps, international aid” organizations, mosques, schools, etc. to shield their terrorists? Because Hamas constantly using such civilian infrastructure to protect their terrorist operatives has caused a really huge and needless civilian death toll. (Yes, yes, I do understand — the leader of Hamas has made it abundantly clear Hamas wants a high civilian death toll, but I just don’t see any need to concern ourselves with the well-being or values of terrorists.)

@45 Smears is all you have. It is not a good look but it's probably a little late for you to worry about that.

62, Ouch, a moral scolding from someone defending flagrant acts of terror. Much to consider.

64, Israel has a choice whether to bomb refugee camps and international aid workers even if they are sheltering terrorists, though there have been many instances where they were not.

I know that you will hand-wave away anything Israel does that results in mass casualties but what I am telling you is that any arguments that start from the position that your side is inherently superior will not win over hearts and minds as long as they are killing innocent people by the tens of thousands.

Are we supposed to laugh or cry when apologists for a litany of war crimes invoke morality?

@59: Glad to see the UN has upped their game! Last year, they emitted not one peep of protest for the gang-rapes of Israeli women. Sure, after a few months of Congressional criticism, women’s groups protesting outside UNHQ in New York, etc., the UN finally came around to the idea that using gang-rape as a weapon might not be the very best way to manage conflict.

By contrast, their very clear demands —when the victims were almost entirely members of a known, long-standing terrorist organization — was incredibly swift and condemnatory.

It’s good to know which side the UN is on.

@65: I’m guessing you’re mad because your backup walkie-talkie is now gone, too?

"Hamas told us to murder more innocent civilians so we were glad to do it. There is nothing like murdering 10,000s women and children to reach peace and freedom"

"Opponents of war = terrorists; United Nations = terrorists; No, we are not extremists, just moral human beings"

@66: I’m glad you are at least open to the possibility that combatants might be sheltering among refugees and international aid workers. That’s a thought worth sitting with for a while.

71, I don’t find it particularly compelling even if it’s sometimes true because it means scores of innocent people, critical infrastructure, food, and medical supplies are lost, leading to even more innocent death and suffering.

Israel has access to the most sophisticated military in the world yet they choose to rely on the most crude and destructive means at their disposal. You will never convince me that any of it is justified, no matter how many terrorists they take out by killing dozens of doctors, children, humanitarian workers in the process.

@66: “Israel has a choice whether to bomb refugee camps and international aid workers even if they are sheltering terrorists, though there have been many instances where they were not.”

Glad to know you’re so sure.

You know how Israel could have avoided any civilian deaths in Gaza? If Hamas had stood and fought, where they had raped and killed. Then, any civilian casualties would have been Israelis.

You know how to reduce attacks on civilian infrastructure? Don’t have terrorists use civilians and civilian infrastructure as cover for terrorist activities.

Guess what happens when you remain silent about all of that for almost a year, then express moral great outrage at the possibility of a few civilians dying when the terrorists get targeted? Go ahead, tell us. Give it a try; you’ve been very active today already.

Interesting episode of the daily today covering the far-right extremist Netanyahu regime, which they describe as an existential threat to Israel. Even the most hardline mainstream media outlets are recognizing the danger that these people pose to their own objectives.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000669918294

73, You seem to think you’re making rational arguments here when you just sound like a bloodthirsty maniac to the average reader. Or at least that’s my most generous assumption. Maybe you’re trying to convince yourself, idk.

I’ve been avoiding wading into this fight because I have no skin in the game beyond my wish to see all the death and destruction come to an end. As long as people like you will find justification for all of it nothing is going to change so congratulations I guess. You and Hamas can ride your endless bloodshed into the sunset together.

@75: Everyone wants the death and destruction to come to an end. They just disagree as to what the peace should look like.

Hamas could always cease fire, release the hostages, and march meekly into Israeli prison. But somehow I don’t think they’d go for that deal.

Israel could always disband its army, invite 9 million Arabs to move in, and abandon the idea of a home of Jews on the lands of their ancestors. But somehow I don’t think they’d go for that deal.

The modern state of Israel is only 76 years old. The jury is still out on whether the Arabs and Muslims (and certain Western progressives 😉) can learn to live with it. The majority have, which gives me hope for the future. As for the rest, well, there’s always pagers and walkie-talkies.

Netanyahu doesn’t want the bloodshed to end because he knows also it means the end of his regime, too. This is why he has set an impossible objective as the endpoint for the fighting. There is no world where a gang of bloodthirsty terrorists with nothing to lose decide to surrender everything when they could fight to the death with the same outcome for them.

@76 "Israel could always disband its army, invite 9 million Arabs to move in, and abandon the idea of a home of Jews on the lands of their ancestors. But somehow I don’t think they’d go for that deal."

Somehow you forgot to mention all that Israel could do first, like stop illegally occupying and annexing Palestinian land, stop killing and maiming protesters of its illegal occupation whether they are violent or not, stop killing journalists, stop jailing 1000s of political opponents (and without due process), stop bulldozing Palestinian homes and agricultural land, stop stealing their water, etc.. in other words comply with international law and stop the colonial venture bent on ethnic cleansing.

@78: You know good and well that nothing Israel does will ever be good enough to win the world’s approval. So…can the world learn to tolerate a Jewish state in modern times? Can you?

@barth: Your statements reduce to the logic that any non-zero probability of civilian casualties means no state can strike at terrorists, even when the terrorists intentionally use civilians for shields. That last statement contradicts our current laws of war, and for good reason. It’s a formula for endless terrorism, always from behind helpless civilians.

You’ve had many chances to recognize the terrorists’ responsibility in getting large numbers of civilians killed, but each time, you carefully walked around it. Instead, you focused on a tiny number of civilian casualties from targeted strikes against a known terrorist organization. That was what you find unforgivable.

I’ve typed it many times, so here it is again: intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime. Without exception, every potential war crime should be investigated, tried, and resolved with either acquittal or punishment. I do not care at all about the identity of the alleged perpetrators, or of their victims. It’s the same principle of justice as in civilian life.

I want the bloodshed to end too. I just don’t think giving terrorists carte blanche to hide behind civilians will get us there. In fact, I truly believe it will take us rapidly in the other direction.

I have never denied Hamas’ role in getting their own people killed. I also do not deny Netanyahu is putting his own people in harm’s way through his reckless conduct in this war. Israel is responsible for their own choices and there is no number of Hamas terrorists being killed that justifies bombing hospitals, ports, and refugee camps. I know you disagree with me and I don’t care.

@65 relax. I'm just having fun at your expense. I'd hardly call that a smear. Given some of your previous statements if I wanted to smear you I could do a lot better. You and I are never going to agree on how this needs to be resolved because we view the causes as completely different but I don't hold any ill will against you. I just think you are incredibly naive.

@81: You disagree also with the Fourth Geneva Convention, which does not allow combat forces to use civilians to shield their military assets. You should be angry about hospitals and other civilian infrastructure in Gaza being used for shielding terrorists, but instead you just declared that no matter how many terrorists are shooting from inside a civilian building, you won't ever agree it has become a legitimate target. That's your opinion and you're welcome to it, but it's not in any way the statement of superior morality you seem to think it is.

As for the targeted attacks on Hezbollah, they should not have carried their terrorist equipment (radios) into civilian areas. Just because you refuse to blame them for the resultant civilian deaths does not actually absolve them of blame.

@82: In addition to awe at the sheer technical acumen needed to carry out these attacks, the karmic / poetic justice of terrorists getting blown up by their own military equipment, before they could use it to carry out attacks on civilians, makes for a real treat. Too bad our friends here are too upset over the deaths of terrorists to enjoy it.