"We probably won't truly understand the scale of the carnage until after a ceasefire." Get rid of "probably" and Hannah is correct.

Hasn't that been true of all wars?

Hasn't it been true in all wars that the collateral damage to non-combatants, and non-combatant infra-structure has always been higher than to military members?

And yet the international community has not repealed:

"Article 51

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations."

Averagebob,

The U.N. also hasn't abolished Article 43 which requires member states to maintain armed forces

It hasn't abolished Article Articles 44 - 47, which discuss the U.N. using armed force to enforce international law.

So the question in Gaza has never been whether force would be used to restore peace, but whether it would be the IDF alone or a U.N. sponsored coalition.

Either way Gazan's would be caught in the crossfire. All in accordance with international law and the U.N. Charter.

@2: Christ, again with the terrible takes on international law.

Article 43 of the UN Charter does not require member states to maintain a military. There are many member states that do not. Article 43 only requires member states that have militaries to make their militaries available for various types of UN military actions on an ad hoc basis.

Also, although Israel is certainly entitled to attack Hamas in Gaza, it is not required to attack Hamas in Gaza. So there is indeed a question of “whether force would be used,” and there still is a question of whether force SHOULD be used.

I am once again revoking your internet lawyer license. You and AverageBob deserve one another! 😄

"Merry Christmas.
Israel is STILL
committing
genocide."
--@tS

what UTTER
Nonsense! the Wormtongue's
been here for a fucking Year INSISTING
it Cannot BE a "genocide" if Bernie fucking
Sanders says it may not be (yet). and he's right:

Israel's War Crimes
in Palestine are
approaching
Omnicide.

and
WE, the
People of the
USofA're fucking
sending them OUR
TAX DOLLARS to do so.

merry
christ-mas
Everyone! and
Happy Holy Days:

let the
Massacrring
of women & kids
continue Unabated.

they
asked for
it. didn't they?

Hannah, is the ICE deportation awful because it was on Christmas Eve? Also, we're still in the Biden administration. A link to X isn't helpful.

-or-

"You ain't see nothin' yet!"

@3, "Undertake to make available to the Security Council, on its call and in accordance with a special agreement or agreements, armed forces."

It does not add a modifier like "armed forces, if they have them." Any nation could not agree to supply troops, territory, or munitions, and then the U.N. has to decide how to punish the member that fails to live up to its obligation. In reality, the U.N. never does anything. Member nations get all the rights, and none of the responsibilities. They don't kick countries out for failing to pay dues, failing to provide military force, or failure to do anything required of members under their Charter. So the U.N. is sovereign over nothing.

If a country is going to engage in self-defense, by definition, it will use force. I suppose Israel could have surrendered or just sit back and continued to take Hamas's attack, leaving it solely to Hamas to determine if, or when, their attack would stop.

You can create an armed force by conscription and impromptu minimal training. Ukraine did when they faced invasion, training some with broomsticks for wood dummy firearms, until they had enough rifles available. Russia still does it today, throwing human cannon fodder in front of AFU to be slaughtered.

If your country has a population, they have a military, or can instantaneously create one. Give the population weapons, have them fight hand to hand, or just be cannon fodder to soak up the oppositions combat power.

The only reason Israel continues to exist is because 473 million Arabs don't launch themselves in unending, unarmed, continuous waves at 9.7 million Israelis until Israel runs out of bombs and bullets, gun barrels fail, fuel runs out, etc. Would such an Arab Army be efficient? Nope. Would it be a bloodbath? Yup. Would the casualty ratio massively favor Israel? Yes. Would it be a bloodbath? Probably the worst in any single war in human history. Would a fully committed Arab population achieve the aim of annihilating Israel and imposing political aims by other means (apologies to Von Clausewitz)? Yes.

The U.N. specifically contemplates and legalizes war, at least wars of self-defense. Once they start, its only a matter of whether the non-combatants caught in the middle are being slaughter by only two opposing forces, multiple opposing forces, and whether those forces are nationally, or multi-nationally commanded.

@3, Is it really a law, if there is no willingness to use whatever coercive means are necessary to attempt to enforce it? Or is it a mere aspiration and suggestion? I.e. International law, when the international community just throws out mere words without the means or will to give those words effect.

I'm sorry you have to work too hannah but look on the bright side, the way TS is cleaning house maybe you won't have to much longer!

Why stop with the false accusations of genocide? If you're going to continue this modern blood libel as The Stranger continues dabbling in Der Stürmer-style "reporting," you should be more creative.
-Do Jews render the fat of infants to make their Hanukkah candles?
-Obviously, the. number of tzitzit Jewish men sport at the waist equal the number of their victims.
-I've heard the Talmud instructs them to make all Goyim their slaves.
-In Judaism, there are 613 commandments, reportedly with more than 550 related to colonial settler imperialism, apartheid and genocide.
Continue ad nauseum.

If attacks occur upon Seattle Jewish institutions or residents, will Hannah or anyone else feel even the slightest sense of responsibility for pushing these false narratives and encouraging some among us to target local Zionists (Jews)?

It's less than 20 years since the attack on the Seattle Jewish Federation (7/28/2006). The environment is ripe for a repeat of such a heinous crime or far worse. But please continue stoking the fire of the growing Jew hate, I'm sure it will be fine.

@4: While watching your own personal show-trial prosecution of now-disgraced former Comrade Bernie is fun, I do wonder who gave you the order to start using "omnicide"? And do you mean the IDF has merely started killing every human in "Palestine," or does your definition include killing every last living creature in that area?

@6: No, you're Average-bobbing Article 43. Read it more carefully. It says member states have to "make available" armed forces (and assistance and facilities) to the Security Council upon its call. it does not say that member states have to have armed forces in the first place. Plenty of member states do not maintain armed forces, and that's totally allowed. 😄

The Annex to Article 43 addresses this issue explicitly in Chapter IV, Article 14:

"Contributions by Member Nations of the United Nations, other than the permanent members of the Security Council, may not necessarily be represented by armed forces. Such other Member Nations which may be unable to furnish armed forces may fulfil their obligation to the United Nations by furnishing facilities and other assistance in accordance with agreements reached with the Security Council."

Seriously, dude, you gotta read what the text actually says, not just cherry-pick excerpts of the text in isolation to support your personal politics! 😄

“Christ Is Still in the Rubble”: Bethlehem Rev. Isaac Calls on U.S. to Stop Funding Gaza Genocide

REV. MUNTHER ISAAC: “Never again” should mean never again to all peoples. “Never again” has become “yet again” — yet again to supremacy, yet again to racism and yet again to genocide.

https://www.democracynow.org/2024/12/23/rev_munther_isaac_christmas_2024

Let it be reflected that Lying POS thumpus again desperately attempts to link me to NotMyopic with whom I disagree with just about everything. Continual smears, harassment and character assassination is what happens to Israel critics. I suspect that I should wear thumpus' systematic slander of my person as a badge of honor: I'd be ignored if my criticism wasn't effective.

@9 you understand that by breathlessly labeling any criticism of Israel, the nation state, "blood libel" you are removing any actual meaning from that phrase? If you actually think "the IDF should follow international human rights norms" is equivalent to "Jews render baby fat to make Hanukkah candles" you are a crazy person.

"Continual smears, harassment and character assassination"

Classic tactics of the far right and authoritarians who want to suppress discourse that opposes their politics any which way they can

@14: lol, but you came on here in the November 18 slog to argue that Hamas's videotaped beheading of a wounded hostage was an act of Palestinian self-defense! 😂😂😂

@15: ha ha ha, no one's trying to "suppress" your "discourse." It's just that you're comprehensively wrong about anything having to do with Israel. Anti-semitism has poisoned your ability to analyze. 😂

"Continual smears,
harassment and character
assassination is what happens to Israel critics."
--@ab

when bibi
sent wormmy
his Sockbott 🔨
they did what they
Do -- shut Off the ethics dept.

when MOST OF The fucking Planet*
calls it what it Is but you Hafta resort to
Webster's to continue your Justifications of bibi's
keep the fuck outta Prison gambit cum Murder soiree

2/3 of the Dead
being Women
and Children

&
Not
Hamas

what fucking Lesson
are we teaching
the Planet?

and We
are fucking
Paying for this
fucking Insanity

*what
Else've
you even Got?

and now back
to the Wormtongue
our reasonable centrist
and his cute lil' pet monkey
and our resident morally-blind Nihilust
with an Uncanny vision for seeing the invisible

and missing
the obvious

@10
you spelled
IOF wrong again.

"@[Wormtongue] you understand that by breathlessly labeling any criticism of Israel, the nation state, ""blood libel"" you are removing any actual meaning from that phrase?"
--@14,@13twelve

hmmm.
Using the Wormtingue's
tactics on wormmy Himself?

see him
wriggle see
him squirm there
he Goes Again -- our
little Worm! aka: the Justifier

“Genocide is taking place in Gaza,” [Doctor Without Borders] says
19 December 2024
Israeli forces are “crushing the entire population of Gaza”, Médecins Sans Frontières warns in a new report – the latest by an international organisation to describe Israeli military actions in Gaza as ethnic cleansing and genocide.

The Israeli military is “destroying the conditions of life” in Gaza through 14 months of attacks on civilians, dismantling the healthcare system and infrastructure, and denying humanitarian aid, the aid organisation said.

“We are seeing clear signs of ethnic cleansing as Palestinians are forcibly displaced, trapped, and bombed,” MSF secretary general Christopher Lockyear said in a statement. “What our medical teams have witnessed on the ground throughout this conflict is consistent with the descriptions provided by an increasing number of legal experts and organisations concluding that genocide is taking place in Gaza.”
https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/news/2024/12/19/genocide-taking-place-gaza-msf-says

@18: “…when MOST OF The fucking Planet*
calls it what it is…”

Well, obviously, if a belief has widespread popularity, it simply must be factually correct. That’s how we know European Jews once used the blood of Christian children in the Passover host.

(Bernie’s refusal to agree with you continues to hit you really hard, I see.)

“2/3 of the Dead
being Women
and Children

&
Not
Hamas”

While I’m glad to read you finally admit Hamas is a combatant in Gaza, 1/ we really don’t know the casualty breakdown, but 2/ we do know Hamas’ leaders instructed their terrorists to keep the civilian body count high. So if they pushed it all the way up to 2/3, then I guess Hamas’ leadership was pleased?

“…and his cute lil' pet monkey…”

Dehumanizing one’s political opponents never leads to any long-term political problems, eh?

Amnesty International investigation concludes Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza

December 5, 2024

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/

Israel’s Crime of Extermination, Acts of Genocide in Gaza

December 19, 2024

https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-extermination-acts-genocide-gaza

UN Special Committee finds Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war

14 November 2024

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/11/un-special-committee-finds-israels-warfare-methods-gaza-consistent-genocide

'The environment is ripe for a repeat of such a heinous crime [7/28/2006], or far worse. But please continue stoking the fire of the growing Jew hate' --@9

bibi's keep outta prison gambit's
what's stoking those fires not
our condemnation of either
genocide or genocide lite

its bibi's war
and NOT something
Jews planet-wide should be
fucking Blamed for. that's just Wrong.

end the
massacre
end the War
Crimes free fucking
Israel free Palestine and
either Depose bibi or give
him Amnesty. either way END

bibi's War on Humanity.

@wormmy
above -- apologies
I seldom read your tripe any-
more tho sometimes I'll skim but
not this time. your vile regurgitations

aren't
worth the
brainspace

tl;db

@17 You are a liar. I challenge you to cite any antisemitic comment from me.

@20 "Well, obviously, if a belief has widespread popularity, it simply must be factually correct"

When you're forced to use Holocaust denier logic to desperately defend Israel's conduct in Gaza you know you've lost the plot.

@16 I was mocking you all's repeated insistence the IDF bombing children's hospitals etc were acts of Israeli self defense, since it's apparently necessary to spell it out explicitly

In case anyone was still wondering why the body count in Gaza is so high:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-bombing.html

@26: lol, you consistently fail the 3D test.

@28: lol, i see, the "just kidding" defense of terrorism. Sorry, not buying the trolling defense. The thing about trolls is, they actually mean it 😉

@14: '...you understand that by breathlessly labeling any criticism of Israel, the nation state, "blood libel" you are removing any actual meaning from that phrase?'

@9 very much didn't say "any criticism" constituted "blood libel." He specified a single term: "Why stop with the false accusations of genocide? If you're going to continue this modern blood libel..." and then listed other accusations which could be made, all of them obviously false. That you need to use such a juvenile attempt at deflection via false logic demonstrates you know he has a point.

The unbelievable dishonesty with which the Stranger, and supportive commenters, have abused the word, "genocide," marks the lowest of many low points in the civil discourse here. It started with the pointed refusal to call 10/7 a genocide, and then has become an endless series of false accusations against Israel, and anyone who dares to defend Israel here. If getting called on it hurts, then maybe you might want to think about why.

that Body Count is
ludicrous its likely Oodles
higher ~ Hamas's got an Agenda
too & Punishes all Deniers. end the Madness.

perhaps
Thedonold'll
do something
Unexpected. suprise
Us mister "president."

sans
Mass
Casualties

if you Would
sir?

@4, TLDR: It doesn't matter how many Gazans die as long as they were killed without American money.

@32 "Any" was my word. Falsely conflating the nation state of Israel with "Jews" is disingenuous and unhelpful. Of course seeing as you frequently do the same your accusation of "juvenile attempt at deflection via false logic" is obvious projection.

@cannotseeforest;toogottdamnmanyTrees!

no
dummy
(& WTF? ii!ii !)
but Not Sponsoring
Terrorism's a Great Place
to Start. as if we had no pull.

tho
bibi couldn't
Possibly disrespect
(formerly-) smokin' Joe Biden
any more. AIPAC's got this once-
Proud Country on its knees to nutnyahoo

we
Seriously
NEEDED a Disrupter.
but Not this fucking One.

@11, You are missing the forest for the trees. They must participate in the delivery of coercive force by the U.N. according to your own citations. Even if they don't provide arms or soldiers, they are required to provide something to precipitate and support the U.N.'s combat. If they provide cash or territory for the U.N's use of force they are part of the application of force, with non-combatants in the middle.

They can supply forces (be it from a standing Army, or an ad hoc one raised to meet U.N. obligations, or for self-defense), or they can provide bases, and other aids to the U.N. is applying force. The whole U.N. scheme anticipates war and the application of force, with non-combatants caught in the crossfire.

The point is that averagebob is full of shit that once a war breaks out, non-combatants won't be caught in the crossfire if the U.N. gets involved.

Either the attacking state or group, the defending state or group, a multi-national force (e.g. NATO), or a U.N. force, or some combination of the above, puts non-combatants in the cross-fire, if the Articles of the U.N. Charter in question are excercised. The U.N. can't take away anyone's agency with a piece of paper, and the only way that non-combatants get out of the crossfire is if the parties voluntarily stop fighting (which means the U.N. isn't required), the U.N., or someone else makes them stop fighting by force. If its the latter, Gazans are no better off. The only thing that changes is the color of the uniforms putting non-combatants in the crossfire.

Barring the former, the introduction of the U.N. does nothing to keep non-combatants out of the crossfire. If you are a Gazan does it matter if you are caught between the IDF and Hamas, or some international force and Hamas. If you aren't a Gazan caught between combatant forces, because Israel, or the U.N. don't exercise those U.N. Charter rights, then you are an Israeli being mowed down by Hamas while nobody does anything to stop them.

@14, When Israel has been adjudicated to have violated any human rights norms, then we will worry about it.

Like in any court proceeding, until final adjudication, no norms have been determined to have been violated. Allegations, and actual violations are two separate things.

Of course by the time there is adjudication, the parties will have come to some sort of ceasefire, or other interim halt to hostilities, and the case will be moot.

The U.N. and international tribunals don't remove non-combatants from crossfire, one-side, or both, deciding not to fight anymore does. The only time the U.N. has actually ended the slaughter of non-combatants is when they have put their thumb on one-side or the other of the conflict with force to get one or both sides to cry uncle sooner.

@35: ' "Any" was my word.'

Yes, that was my point. You didn't address @9's point, but tried to minimize it via deflection.

@9's point was anti-Jewish bigots, who already can't tell the difference between fact and obvious fictions, aren't likely to make such fine distinctions between the Jewish State, and Jews worldwide. (The childish and bitter use of the term, "Zionist Entity," as a synonym for Israel, seen at the UW protest encampment this past Spring, doesn't help.) Hence Nikolai's concern that the false accusation of "genocide," against Israel could lead to other false accusations, against Jews in Seattle.

"Of course seeing as you frequently do the same..."

Examples of which would be... ?

@19: thirteen12 @14 wasn't referring to anything I wrote, but to Nikolai's comment @9. (Not that you'd ever let mere facts get in the way of your vitriol, but I thought you might want to pay more attention next time.)

@20, So assuming that is true for the sake of argument, what army are those groups going to use to stop the carnage for those non-combatants? What army will the U.N. use? If they do use that army then the non-combatants will be caught between not just Hamas and the IDF, but between Hamas, the IDF, and troops supplied by member states and put under U.N. Command.

If you are a Gazan, does it matter if the artillery shell or bomb that kills you was fired by Hamas, the IDF, or some army supplied to the U.N. by one of its member states? Of course not. It won't be safe until the combat stops, and the combat won't stop until someone defeats Hamas, the IDF, or both, which would require, paradoxically, more combat in an amongst the non-combatants.

Resolutions or court judgments are worth the paper they are printed on, without the ability to use the force required to get compliance with them.

@30 Of course you are incapable of giving a citation to substantiate your smears. Like a typical far right thug defending genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid, all you have is slander.

@29, "The Israel Defense Forces, responding to the article, confirmed that its rules of engagement had changed when the war broke out, but maintained that all practices remained consistent with international law."

International law expressly permits collateral damage. If it didn't Article 51, which guarantees the right of self-defense, would have to be repealed, as would have to be repealed as well as many of the Articles that precede it.

Definitions of, and limitations on, acceptable collateral damage are vague enough to drive a truck through the loopholes of international law.

@ab

see
That's
the Beauty of
a i --🔨's out of
Our hands! possible
deniability its master's voice
on steroids dirty deeds done dirt Cheap

paid
for with
Our Tax $$$?

wouldn't
That be a
Side-splitter!

@41, So how are Gazans better off stuck between 30,000 to 40,000 IDF troops and a 50,000 troop U.N. Genocide/Hostage Rescue Team that would shoot at each other if the U.N. were to try and force Israel to stop? Would they also be stuck between Hamas and U.N. Genocide/Hostage rescue team?

If you are a Gazan, does it matter if its an artillery shell fired by Hamas, the IDF, or some U.N. Genocide/Hostage Rescue Force, that kills you?

If Hamas or the IDF were willing to voluntarily stop, then why would the U.N. need to be involved to force them to stop? If they are involved to forcibly stop Hamas and the IDF, they are still between forces firing artillery, bombs, and bullets at each other.

@36: "(formerly-) smokin' Joe Biden"

If he's still President, and the "genocide" remains ongoing, then why are you not still calling him "Genocide Joe"?

Oh, that's right; it was just a campaign-season political smear, in the form of a vile personal attack upon the leader of the Democratic Party. Once you'd helped deliver the election to Trump, you could stop pretending it was accurate -- or even worth typing any more. Amazing, how strongly-stated outrage instantly becomes utterly disposable garbage.

"AIPAC's got this once-
Proud Country on its knees to nutnyahoo..."

There's a federal law which requires the US to arm Israel. Pres. Biden did suspend some arms sales to Israel this past year, in accordance with our laws. This was not enough for the All Genocide All the Time Crowd, but they don't care about our laws anyway. Conspiracy theories are more their style.

@20 “Genocide is taking place in Gaza,” [Doctor Without Borders] says"

So, Doctors without Borders says that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza and our resident genocide deniers still claim that genocide in Gaza is the figment of our imagination

@21 "Amnesty International investigation concludes Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza "

So, Amnesty International says that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza and our resident genocide deniers still claim that genocide in Gaza is the figment of our imagination

@22 "Israel’s Crime of Extermination, Acts of Genocide in Gaza"

So, Human Rights Watch says that Israel is committing acts of genocide in Gaza and our resident genocide deniers still claim that genocide in Gaza is the figment of our imagination

@23 "UN Special Committee finds Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war"

So, UN Special Committee says that Israel is committing acts of genocide in Gaza and our resident genocide deniers still claim that genocide in Gaza is the figment of our imagination

@46-@49: While I understand that -- by your standards -- you packed an incredible amount of truly creative original work into those comments, your abuse of the word, "genocide" is a product of your demonstrated malice, not a figment of your self-attested imagination.

And especially @49, at this time last year, UN Women was still smarting over their initial refusal to condemn Hamas' 10/7 gang-rapes of Israeli women. Truly a profile in courage, that...

geesh
averagebob
give it a Rest!

they've been building
their case for Palestinian An-
nihilation ever since Oct/7th with
their constant and uninterrupted 'Remember
October Seventh! as if every day were the 8th of October

wat they'd
Love for us to
Forget is Israell
higher-ups, labeling
Gazans as Vermin to be
Exterminated by ALL means
Possible -- precisely what our
Wormtongue absolutely abhorrs
to Admit -- expressing EXPLICITLY
what bibi's Crew was Gonna fucking DO

'from the Earth
to the Sea we will
soon enough be Free

of 'Palestinian Pestilence'
or words of equal and
equally Horrifying
demeanor cuz

which's
what they
Did. are Doing

admitting so doing
is tantamount to
a Confession

right,
wormmy?

@50 "you packed an incredible amount of truly creative original work"

That's rich coming from someone who makes the same absurd comments over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over for the last 14 fucking months and NEVER addresses the substance of what is being said to him ... DID I say you make the same stupid comments over and over again as if repeating them once again and once again would make them a little less stupid than before? Like Kristo, I hardly ever read your comments because not only are they so full of tortured logic that they are absurd which makes them painful to read (may be your intent is to cause pain to your readers), and but needless to say it again you already said everything you had to say a very long time ago, however senseless it was the first time.

Everything you just said in your comment, you already said it a few dozen times (hundreds perhaps) before and everything in it has been debunked many times but NOOOOOOO you keep on pretending you just proffered some original thought that we haven't easily shat on before.

@50 "your abuse of the word, "genocide""

“Genocide is taking place in Gaza,” [Doctor Without Borders] says"

@50 "your abuse of the word, "genocide""

"Amnesty International investigation concludes Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza "

@50 "your abuse of the word, "genocide""

""Israel’s Crime of Extermination, Acts of Genocide in Gaza"
Human Rights Watch

@50 "your abuse of the word, "genocide""

"UN Special Committee finds Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war"

@49, A committee can say anything the committee members want the committee to say. They can have the committee allege anything they want to allege.

Committees are self-selecting in the sense that countries with a particular point-of-view or area of interest are going to express an interest in serving on subject Committees that will allow them to advance their view, even if the membership must ultimately be approved by the whole General Assembly.

The Committee's allegations are, so far at least, un-adjudicated by an independent panel into a final finding and judgement.

Assume for the sake of argument that the Committee is correct. What Genocide Rescue Team is the U.N. going to send into Gaza to use force against the IDF, and or Hamas, to enforce their findings and orders?

Will Gazans be any better off with U.N. artillery and bombs falling on and around them as they fire on the IDF and/or Hamas to force them to stop fighting among the non-combatants of Gaza?

@50 "your abuse of the word, "genocide""

REV. MUNTHER ISAAC: “Never again” should mean never again to all peoples. “Never again” has become “yet again” — yet again to supremacy, yet again to racism and yet again to genocide."

@54, Amnesty International is not a neutral fact finder or judicial body. They are prosecutors, if you will, of what they allege are war crimes.

Get back to me when a court, or the U.N. Security Council, finds against Israel and has raised a force 60,000 or more to invade Gaza to stop the IDF from going after Hamas amongst the Gazan non-combatants.

@50 "your abuse of the word, "genocide""

A new survey of Middle East scholars, with over 750 mostly U.S.-based respondents, reveals [..] Respondents describe Israeli actions in damning terms, with 41% saying they constitute major war crimes akin to genocide, nearly 34% saying they constitute genocide, and 16% saying they are not akin to genocide, but are still major war crimes.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/gloom-about-the-day-after-the-gaza-war-pervasive-among-mideast-scholars/

@50 "your abuse of the word, "genocide"

1/3 of US Jews call it genocide in Gaza. So much for the "token Jews" ...

May 31, 2024
Survey Among American Jews: Approximately one-third of respondents agreed with the accusation that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, while about half disagreed.
https://jcpa.org/survey-among-american-jews-over-51-support-for-bidens-decision-to-withhold-arms-shipments-to-israel/

@60 -- "... Like Kristo, I hardly ever read your comments because not only are they so full of tortured logic that they are absurd which makes them painful to read (may be your intent is to cause pain to your readers)... "

the guy who said
"the Cruelty IS
The Point."?

named his socking-the-commentariat
puppet Thump the Commentariat
with Every stinkin' Reply:
That guy?

oh
say
it aiin't so:

the
Cruelty IS
the bloody Poiint.

just.
Like.
Palestine.

lol, not sure what AverageBob thinks he is proving by citing polls in which a minority of respondents agree with him while the majority disagree with him 😂

What’s there to say? Some people think it’s a genocide. Most people don’t. The ones who do are wrong. There ya go. 😁

@60, Yup a survey. That will get the IDF and Hamas to lay down their arms and take Gazans out of the crossfire.

thank you
averagebob for
your counternarrative
to the Wormtongue's in-
sidious excuses and inces-
sant Justifications for bibi's
Freedom for bibi! campaign cum
Major War Crimes Fiasco in the M.E.

now if
we might
pull the plug
on his 🔨ing🛴.

You all are a bunch of idiots - but congrats on accomplishing nothing.

@62 "What’s there to say?"

1) The most reputable human rights and medical NGO's (Amnesty, HRW, MSF) that have studied the evidence say it is genocide.

2) 1/3 of US Jews who are under intense pressure to defend Israel and subject to US media propaganda say that it is genocide. Hardly a few "token Jews" as you usually like to call them

3) 75% of Mideast experts say it is at the minimum akin to genocide. Hardly a minority, except in the mind of a propagandist fond of twisting the meaning of words

4) UN Human rights experts that have studied the evidence say there is good reason to believe it is genocide

5) Israel and its allies who are complicit, and the lap dog media say it's not genocide.

@63 "Yup a survey."

well, elections are surveys too, but keep pretending that public opinion doesn't matter

@58 "Get back to me when a court, or the U.N. Security Council, finds against Israel and has raised a force 60,000 or more to invade Gaza to stop the IDF"

Do you believe Netanyahu should surrender himself on the warrant to the ICC for adjudication? If the war crimes allegations are substantiated should the US intervene militarily to put a stop to them?

@28: Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention spells it out for you, in full: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." (https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-28?activeTab=1949GCs-APs-and-commentaries) If Hamas uses a children's hospital as cover for combatant operations, then Hamas has stripped that children's hospital of protection. Hamas has made it into a legitimate military target, and the IDF may bomb it, as the IDF deems necessary, to protect Israel.

Over the course of the past year-plus, this point has been explained many, many times in these threads. Your apparent dislike for international law on this point does not invalidate international law in the slightest.

@52: "Everything you just said in your comment, you already said it a few dozen times (hundreds perhaps) before and everything in it has been debunked many times..."

Why? Because you say so? Someone has "debunked" NATO's report on Hamas' extensive use of Gazan civilians for human shields? Someone has "debunked" the Wall Street Journal's review of Sinwar's commands for Hamas to get as many such human shields killed as possible? Who has shown NATO and the Wall Street Journal to have been incorrect on these matters? Do tell.

"Like Kristo, I hardly ever read your comments..."

HA HA HA HA HA HA!! kristo' has responded to multiple comments from me in this thread alone. He even misattributed Nikolai's comment @9 to me. Here's a thread wherein I posted no comment at all, and yet kristo' still addressed me personally: https://www.thestranger.com/queer/2024/02/16/79388863/a-dog-a-fox-and-a-rabbit-walk-into-a-bar/comments

Do those sound like the behaviors of someone who "hardly ever reads" my comments?

@67, And what did the last election do? It put someone even more pro-Israel in office. Red shift everywhere.

Gaza didn't move votes.

@68, What army is going to invade Israel to take Netanyahu into custody and remand him for trial? How would that stop the fighting in Gaza and get non-combatants out of the crossfire? International Courts are a feckless diversion from stopping the fighting by having one side, or both, lose so they will stop fighting, and non-combatants can win.

@60 What you are doing is called lying by omission. You keep repeating that Hamas uses human shields without saying that Israel is guilty of much worse forms of using human shields. Some use of civilian facilities by Hamas fighters has been documented (though nowhere as many as would be necessary to justify destroying Gaza or parts of Southern Lebanon) and Hamas is clearly guilty of melding among the population where they live like all fighters in asymmetric conflicts do. In turn, for decades, the IDF has routinely forced Palestinians civilians (including children) to clear a path free of bombs for its troops and positioned its troops among civilian populations. The former being a much worse form of human shield use than the later. What has been repeatedly debunked is your constant lying by omission, not the fact that Hamas uses human shields.

@70 "Gaza didn't move votes."

False. The Gaza probably played a significant part in voter turnout and surely played a significant part in swing states with a large uncommitted vote.

@70 "What army is going to invade Israel to take Netanyahu into custody and remand him for trial?"

I'm asking if you think he should voluntarily surrender himself for adjudication by the court. You made multiple comments indicating your belief that a court should determine whether Israel has committed any crimes. If that's a sincere belief, given the ICC has issued a warrant for his arrest, don't you think it would be right and proper for him to surrender himself?

And if a court does find that Israel has committed crimes do you not think the US has a role in ensuring they are stopped?

"Bethlehem, a town in the West Bank that’s cited as Jesus’s original birth place,"

It's well worth noting that the claim Jesus was born in Bethlehem has no basis in fact. Even Bible authors did not agree on it:

'The gospel of Matthew depicts Jesus's family as living in Bethlehem and has him being born there in their house. They then flee to Egypt to escape the murderous King Herod the Great and on their return settle in Nazareth in Galilee because Herod's son is now ruling Judea, preventing them from returning to Bethlehem.

'The gospel of Luke tells a completely different story. In this story, his family live in Nazareth and travel to Bethlehem for a Roman census. Jesus is born in a stable in Bethlehem, then they return to Nazareth. No element found in the gospel of Luke is found in the gospel of Matthew, and vice versa.'

[...]

'The choice of Bethlehem as the supposed birthplace, the only common factor in the two stories, performed an important task for these two unknown gospel writers as it would have been seen as fulfilling an Old Testament prophecy in Micah 5.2:

'"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

'In other words, these gospel writers wanted it to be seen by the Jews of the day that this “ruler over Israel” was Christian, not Jewish; yet another reason for them to convert and follow the still very new religion of Christianity instead of Judaism.'

(https://www.quora.com/Was-Jesus-born-in-Bethlehem-or-Nazareth)

It seems confusion over events in that part of the world has a very long history indeed!

Happy Holidays, everyone.

@72, "The Gaza probably played a significant part in voter turnout and surely played a significant part in swing states with a large uncommitted vote."

"probably" So by your own omission, speculation, not fact.

So without a citation to prove that assertion of yours, it hasn't been demonstrated that Gaza moved votes.

Trump won Michigan by 3 points, in a state where the Arab American vote is 3% of the electorate. Polling indicated that this was the only population demographic that indicated Gaza would move their vote. So in Michigan, which has the largest Arab-American population of any state, your hypothesis might be correct, but you have provided only speculation, not facts to support the hypothesis.

@73, No I do not think he should surrender. He, like any other defendant, enjoys the presumption of innocence.

No Defense Attorney, with a client with a warrant, that is in a place where they are not extraditable, is going to advise a client to advantage the prosecution by surrendering. They are going to advise their client to preserve their liberty and presumption of innocence.

I am also pragmatic. Such a surrender does nothing to get Gazans out of the crossfire. Ending the conflict does. That happens when one-side, or both, decides its too costly, in blood and treasure to continue. Increasing that cost, to one, or both sides, is what will save Gazans. The U.N. and international courts are a side-show distraction from the pragmatic and expeditious.

Within Israel, even those who want Netanyahu's government to fall, and prosecution within Israel, don't support his surrender to an International Court. It ain't gonna happen, and its taking bandwidth from deliberating a course of action that could actually save Gazan lives.

@74, Nothing in the Matthew text depicts Mary and Joseph as living in Bethlehem and being born in the family house.

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ5 took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed6 to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. 20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

    23       “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, 

and they shall call his name Immanuel”

(which means, God with us). 24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

The Visit of the Wise Men
2 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men1 from the east came to Jerusalem, 2 saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; 4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet: "

Nothing in the Matthew text contradicts Luke or tells a different story. They are two different accounts by two different chroniclers of the day, indicating where Jesus was born, and the connection to prophecy. One includes detail of how and why Mary and Joseph were in Bethlehem, the other just states they were there, and remained there for some period of time after Jesus birth. They are complementary, not contradictory accounts.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Mt 1:18–2:5). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

@76 "Such a surrender does nothing to get Gazans out of the crossfire. Ending the conflict does. That happens when one-side, or both, decides its too costly, in blood and treasure to continue. Increasing that cost, to one, or both sides, is what will save Gazans"

So you agree the US should cut off arms and aid to Israel if they don't get out of Gaza?

@71 was for tensor the liar @69 of course

Anybody else noticed that tensorna went silent on the topic of human shields when his lying by omission was documented once again?

Anyhow, another example of tensorna lying by omission is on the issue of sexual violence. Tensorna repeatedly made the point that Israeli women were despicably attacked by assailants on October 7 (like @69) but tensorna never acknowledges that sexual violence toward Palestinian women by Israeli soldiers is also well documented

"United Nations experts on Monday condemned "unacceptable" violence by the Israeli military against women and children during the ongoing war in Gaza, particularly sexual violence and enforced disappearances.

"We are appalled that women are being targeted by Israel with such vicious, indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks, seemingly sparing no means to destroy their lives and deny them their fundamental human rights," the seven special rapporteurs said in a statement."
https://www.barrons.com/news/un-experts-condemn-israel-s-sexual-assault-and-violence-in-gaza-80373a1e

@75 at least and contrarily to you, I readily admitted that I had no absolute proof of my saying that Gaza probably affected turnout so I offered a probability, whereas when you claimed that Gaza had no effect on the vote: you just asserted it without 'proof', nor mere evidence. In other words, your own demonstration was non-existent, yet you have the gall to complain when I offer a significant probability because a proof will be forever impossible.

@77: "Nothing in the Matthew text depicts Mary and Joseph as living in Bethlehem and being born in the family house."

Of course it does. Matthew 1:25 has Jesus born to Mary and named by Joseph; Matthew 2:11 has the Three Wise Men first see Mary and Jesus when the Wise Men come "into the house," which is where the Star of Bethlehem had led them. There's no mention of Jesus or Mary going anywhere between those two events, so it should be obvious they were still in the place where she had given birth to him.

"Nothing in the Matthew text contradicts Luke or tells a different story."

Now you're just being silly. Matthew does not have Jesus born in a manger, whilst Luke (2:16) does. Luke does not have the family flee to Egypt, which Matthew (2:14) does.

As nothing was (or is) known about Jesus before he started his career as an itinerant preacher, each author wrote a nativity story which needed to do two things. First, to satisfy Micah 5:2, Jesus had to be born in Bethlehem. Second, as Jesus had not grown up in Bethlehem, that had to be explained as well. So they each created a nativity story which had Jesus born in Bethlehem, but grow up in Nazareth. Their stories agree on those required plot points; on other points, their two stories contradict each other, to the extent of becoming opposite accounts.

Matthew has Jesus born in Bethlehem, because Mary and Joesph already lived there. To get Jesus out of Bethlehem, the author of Matthew uses as a plot device Herod's slaughter of the innocents (which Flavius Josephus somehow never mentions) to send Jesus to Egypt (which was important to the author of Matthew for other reasons). The family then returns from Egypt, not to Bethlehem, but to Nazareth.

Luke's story has Joseph and Mary start in Nazareth. To get them to Bethlehem for Jesus' birth, the author of Luke uses as a plot device the Roman Empire's taxation of a non-Roman territory (!) by making everyone go to their paternal family's home town (which Roman tax records somehow never mention). After that expensive trip, Joseph and Mary return to Nazareth with Jesus.

"They are complementary, not contradictory accounts."

They contradict each other, and each contradicts known history as well. Each story relies upon a different fictional plot device, a plot device loosely based upon some real -- but greatly embellished -- local history. Herod was an evil king, but never slaughtered innocent boys; the Romans always demanded everyone pay taxes, but subjects of Roman-controlled 'independent' kingdoms paid them indirectly, via tribute paid to the Romans by the Romans' local puppet king. The Romans' local puppet king, not the Romans themselves, had to collect the taxes and render the tribute. Therefore, the Romans would neither have ordered nor conducted a taxation census of Herod's kingdom. (As Asimov notes, Herod's kingdom was a borderland for the Roman Empire, so having large numbers of persons moving about within Herod's kingdom would itself have created a security risk to the Roman Empire -- and the Romans were notoriously intolerant of such risks.)

In sum, then, the story of Jesus being born in Bethlehem was fabricated after his death, to demonstrate Jesus had fulfilled the prophecy made by Micah. The authors who fabricated two of these accounts neither agreed with each other, nor with secular records kept at the time.

imagine
if you will
an Expert on
Matthew utterly
Immune to Matthew's

teachings.

oh
the
Irony:

it
Kills.

"Such a surrender
[bibi's, to the International
Court of Justice]* does nothing
to get Gazans out of the crossfire."

when bibi leaves
his pro-genocide
coalition Evaporates

his one-man
keep-outtta-Prison
gambit's the Sole excuse
for this Retribution gone Mad

let's try it
and see if
I'm worng.

this is so
fucking BAD
for both Israel
and Jewish peoples

not to fucking
Mention for
Palestine.

*or
Whomever

@82: More interesting is the lasting propaganda value created by Jesus' fictional birth in Bethlehem. The Stranger (run by persons not famous for adhering to Matthew's teachings, BTW) uses some of this propaganda value in this very headline post. Hence my calling attention to the fictional basis of that story.

your
Immunity
to Matthew
is vastly more
Fascinating than
tS's choice of headline

and tells us all
we need to
know.

depose bibi
or pardon him
End this madness
& these War Crimes
& the Abuse of our $$$.

@84 thanks for clarifying that the son of God made flesh, born via immaculate conception, who would later rise from the dead to save humanity from its sins, was born in a manger but NOT in Bethlehem--that part is fictional.

@79: You addressed your comment @69 to yourself @60. Your inability to count that high is not my problem. I didn't "go silent," so much as I had better things to do than figure out if the comment you'd mislabeled was for me or not.

You keep claiming a 'gotcha' on me with this story, even though I've repeatedly acknowledged Israelis used human shields in Gaza, and that every war crime should be investigated. (There, I've typed those words, yet again, for you to ignore. I have full confidence you will again succeed in ignoring them.) NATO's report on Hamas' use of human shields in Gaza mentions how the Israeli Supreme Court put a stop to the practice back then. That report predates the current conflict by many years, so your implicit claim to have found something new in this matter fails, each and every time you make it.

You further ignore that Hamas uses civilians and their infrastructure in Gaza (e.g. hospitals) for human shields as a matter of policy. You keep trying to equate the two sides, but the Wall Street Journal was clear that Hamas very much wants more civilians killed in Gaza.

Yes, the UN reports you quote are very quick to allege sexual violence by IDF soldiers against civilians in Gaza. (Again, "war crimes, investigation," etc. for you to ignore. Again.) That same UN was really, really slow to acknowledge gang-rape of Israeli women by Hamas on 10/7; in fact, women's groups had to demonstrate in front of UNHQ in New York before UN Women would say anything at all. You keep trying to use the UN as some fountain of truth and moral superiority, but you do so by ignoring UN Resolutions you happen not to like (e.g. UNSCR 1701) and by ignoring the UN's own moral failures.

@85: My immunity to fictional "historical" accounts really does bother you, doesn't it? Care to speculate on a reason for that?

sure thing
wormmy

I just don't get
socio- nor psychopathy

it just seems so

inHumane to me

and yet just Lookit all
the CEOs and Poli-
ticians so afflicted

Brutalitarians're
absolutely the
Wrong choice
to lead Humanity
outta the Swamps and
yet we just keep installing
them to our Eternal Detriment.

xina seems to me
to be quite
Correct:

how the Fuck
do we even
Deserve
Planet
Earth?

and Now
back to
the

Bombing
of Civilians
with OUR $$$.

back to our
Omnicide.

@88: Yes, I understand my ability and willingness to separate fact from fiction, and to do so here, constantly, over your many clear and loud objections, must put incredible stress upon your ability to continue believing what you type. But that's really your problem, not mine.

"... I
understand
my ability and willingness
to separate fact from fiction,
and to do so here, constantly... "

oh
wormmy
I believe you
may have a big
Future in Stand-up.

you'll
Never
be short
of Material

Bravo!

@81, A manger in that time was often found in the ground floor of a house, with living quarters above, or on the same site as a house. Note its "a" house, not "their" house, or his family's house.

@78, So as long as Gazans are dying with weapons purchased on international markets, including black markets, you are happy to see Gazans killed with those weapons.

There was an arms embargo in 1947 and 1948. That stopped the Nakba cold didn't it?

I can guarantee you that any weapons on the open market, won't be as precise as those acquired from the U.S. The less precise they are, the more non-combatants get killed.

If the Arabs gave a shit about people in Gaza and the West Bank, Israel wouldn't exist. 473 million Arabs could march in unarmed waves at 9 million Israelis until Israel ran out of bullets, bombs, and nukes. They could push Israel into the Med. They haven't. Some might call that a miracle. Some might call it callous indifference to the fate of Palestine.

@92: Luke (2:7) explicitly says they stayed in a manger, "...because there was no guest room available for them." In Luke's account, Joseph and Mary are visitors in Bethlehem, because of Luke's (non-existent) Roman census tax on a non-Roman territory. The Bethlehem manger could not have been in their house, because according to Luke, their house was in Nazareth. So, even if Matthew's version, where they remain in Bethlehem, has them stay in a manger which is also in their house (?!?), they did so for a different (and completely unexplained) reason than the reason Luke gives. (Unless you're also claiming there was no guest room in their own house for them?)

I hear the bible
was rigorously fact-
checked by great teams
of translators all throughout
its History and if there were Ever
any 'discrepancies,' the investigations'd
be Ceaseless til they got to the Bottom of things

and No One was allowed to be
Alone with it at Any Time so
OBV we can take it Literally
and at face value. if only
FOX 'news' were as
Legitimate as That
Great Work.

"...you
are happy
to see Gazans
killed with those weapons."

--@mister magoo

hmmm. your vile extrapolation
seems an Awful lot more
like a Projection cum
Thinly-veiled
confession

have you
considered taking
out an an I, Anonymous?

you know, get it
Off your chest?

uh-oh
only

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comments til